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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Anti Feminist Bingo!!

479 replies

TheFeministParent · 23/11/2010 17:19

Elephants had this idea!!

So I'll start

"we're not a homogeneous mass..."
"I don't like to be too narrow..."

OP posts:
LoudRowdyDuck · 26/11/2010 00:57
Confused

Remind me not to jump into a thread a the end again. Elephants, I thought that was pretty clear in your OP ...

Tortington · 26/11/2010 01:01

i understand the premis of this thread, but there is obviously a negative connotationt o antifeminist bingo which does seem to give the term 'anti femininst' a negative rather than neutral starting point from which to debate - if we are as wukter suggesting debating anti feminisms premis.

i think i am an antifeminist

AnyFucker · 26/11/2010 01:07

I don't understand the premise of custardo's post

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 26/11/2010 01:12

in that case Custardo, you can see the bingo card as a helpful guide to use when slagging off feminism :o

And of course for me (a feminist) there is a negative slant to antifeminist comments! Am I supposed to pretend that I love being told that I hate men, or that I need a good seeing-to to put my stupid ideas out of my head?

Also, to be honest, this wasn't a thread set up for debate. There are loads of threads for debating, this was one for collecting examples of comments as explained above. (Not that I am the OP obviously). Start a thread to debate on by all means. And before scottishmummy revs up, yeah you can express yourself anywhere you like, of course. But don't expect everyone to be keen to debate everything, all the time. It's like going onto a thread about good songs for weddings, and insisting on starting a debate (and complaining when not listened to) about how music is just pure shite from beginning to end.

Sakura · 26/11/2010 01:36

drat, I missed the party

earwicga · 26/11/2010 01:37

ElephantsAndMiasmas - it's usually called Feminist Bingo. There's a link about half way up which goes to loads of grids. Plenty of choice there as there is so much shit talked about feminists and feminism.

Sakura · 26/11/2010 02:11

what I don't understand is...why don't people just let feminists get on with it. If feminists don't have a point or a purpose the sane thing to do would be to just leave the maddos to it, wouldn't it Confused

Not to worry SM. It's not as if any of us intelligentsia (!) are going to get a slot on Question time or anything. NO they reserve that for people who have real opninions and valid points of view, like NIck Griffin. We've just got...Mumsnet, for the most part.

Tortington · 26/11/2010 03:45

elephants - i think you proved my point nicely thank you Smile

Sakura · 26/11/2010 05:45

sorry, I don't get you Custardo. are you upset that feminists now and again get to set the terms of the debate; that it should always be non/anti-feminists [i.e the status quo] who get to set the terms of debate?

JessinAvalon · 26/11/2010 07:57

People can be accused of being anti-feminist or anti the feminist movement in the same way that feminists are often accused of being 'anti men'. I then explain my position when that happens to me, ie I am not anti men, I do not hate men, but I hate misogynists and sexists.

To add to the anti-feminist bingo, the political editor of the local paper called us "sour faced feminists" recently in the context of Hooters (a potential advertiser) opening.

Have we had Millie Tants? Wimmin?

JessinAvalon · 26/11/2010 08:00

Aggressive? Bullying?

I've had the above just for having an opinion that's different from the accepted norm (eg strip clubs are bad) and for expressing it.

plupervert · 26/11/2010 09:03

scottishmummy, sorry this is late (from last night, referring back to Thu 25-Nov-10 22:44:07), but I was really interested in your comment: "i struggle with the all women are oppressed but many dont know it hypothesis".

It is all too possible to be oppressed without knowing it, or knowing how. Good political journalism, for example, should aim to expose the insider trades, the secret ownerships, the hidden kickbacks, the scope of problems (i.e. revealing when certain phenomena are widespread, so that those "suffering alone" can organise).

Bad political journalism is, of course, self-indulgence, "I'm more an insider than you are!" stories which are personal stories, not really political ones. For example, in an age in which homosexuality is no longer illegal, was it really important to publicly out David Laws? Of course not. I saw a political journalist I know, out that evening, who made his excuses to leave a party, saying some news outlet had just "broken" the story and they all had to follow, even though they had all known for ages that he was gay. This story probably makes me sound like a bit of an insider, too, for which I apologise. However, I'm bearing witness to it here, according to the model I described for "good" political journalism, above.

If it is only a "clever few" who are enlightened, or have inside knowledge of any kind, that is indeed insidious.

That is probably why moral people who have seen any kind of "light" try to share it. "Public interest" journalism and whistleblowing, and proselytising feminism.

Perhaps the problem you identify comes when the proselytisers come to seem like insiders themselves, or gatekeepers, through reserving the "inner truths" for themselves (perhaps by over-intellectualising), or through not being sufficiently humble, respectively. What do you think?

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 26/11/2010 11:09

No idea which point you are talking about, but I'm always happy to help.

I am still struggling to swallow the idea that, as feminists, we should regard statements that slag off feminists in general, or ourselves individually, as "neutral".

If I said "Custardo is an orrible bitch who hates children and animals and wants a good slapping", do you regard that in a neutral manner? Would you, if it came from the guy next to you at work, or from your mother?

Tortington · 26/11/2010 11:41

wukter Thu 25-Nov-10 23:39:53
"Debating specific points isn't anti feminism. Debating the premise of feminism it self is. It's not difficult to get your head around."

it is this statement that struck me and made me think that i am probably an antifeminist.

Sakura, why would i be upset that feminists get to set the debate?

Elephants, i am not saying that calling someone else names, whomever that person may be - is right. That would indeed be a very weird standpoint for anyone to take.

i think questionning the very premise of feminism can come from a neutral position. to debate this ideology doesn't have to include name calling.

but if the definition of an anti-feminist does include someone who is merely a hater of people who hold the feminist ideology, then i would not count myself amongst them

i don't agree with the globalised marginalised contruct that women are oppressed. all women.

as an ideology to believe in, i don't think that feminism is for me. i don't think discrinimation is based on gender but on the distribution of wealth.

Sakura · 26/11/2010 11:43

Sakura, why would i be upset that feminists get to set the debate?

No idea

Tortington · 26/11/2010 11:48

then why did you suggest it?

Sakura · 26/11/2010 11:49

" i don't think discrinimation is based on gender but on the distribution of wealth."

That dOn'T make sense, Custardo. Poverty is gendered- in the UK and throughout the world. VIolence is gendered. Mutilation Cosmetic surgery is gendered. The list goes on.

YOu're not making sense.

Tortington · 26/11/2010 11:54

if a feminist calls another woman names does that make her a feminist anti feminist? Wink

I'm sorry that you don't understand my ideological premise. Yes whilst one cannot argue that women are not amongst the poor ( as are children and men) My standpoint is that societies inequalities are perpetuated by capitalism which needs to subjugate poor people.

that is not to say that there aren't lots of inequalities, lots of different segments of society who are discriminated against based on gender, sexuality, ability and race. I would rather perpetuate an ideology which would enhance the lives of all people. Not just women.

Sakura · 26/11/2010 11:56

NO, I most certainly do understand your naff ideological premise

patriarchy and capitalism feed off each other.

I like to call it patriarchy-capitalism = the feminization of poverty

claig · 26/11/2010 11:57

I think there is discrimination based on gender and there is also discrimination based on wealth or class and they also overlap.

But I also think that sm and Custardo are right that not all women are oppressed. Is the Queen oppressed? Was Imelda Marcos oppressed? They may be relatively oppressed with regards to men in a similar position, but I don't think they feel the oppression greatly, otherwise they would all be feminists. If all women felt oppressed then wouldn't they all be feminists?

Sakura · 26/11/2010 11:59

claig, love your posts in general, hate your anti-socialist posts. love/hate.

Tortington · 26/11/2010 12:01

sakura why are you so angry at my posts? this isn't a debate its a chance to put in sly comments here and there, and i am so over that style of debating on mumsnet, as i've had it for years.

if there isn't going to be a debate in friendly terms. then i'm off.

Sakura · 26/11/2010 12:01

"If all women felt oppressed then wouldn't they all be feminists?"

No.. I love TheFeministParent's description of emerging feminist consciousness: "It's like I've just woken up from a long sleep"

Sakura · 26/11/2010 12:02

Eh? I said your ideological premise was naff. That's not hate. That was a rebuff to your suggestion that I didn't understand Hmm your ideological premise. Just because someone disagrees with your premise doesn't mean they don't understand it.

Tortington · 26/11/2010 12:06

we are now debating semantics as is always the way with these things.

you said that it didn't make sense

i said you didn't understand

you inferred something more from that (clearly) and rebutted with naff.

who what where when and how...all i know is, this isn't making me feel good. so i'll leave you to it