Lazy partner

[BlairWaldorfsHairband]

Don't know where to start, just feel like I need a massive rant. Sorry for yet another thread about housework.

What the hell can I do? We've lived together 6 months or so, I feel like things are slipping out of my grasp. Today it's all come to a head and I am so unhappy (he doesn't know it at the moment).

I will try to keep it short.

He thinks he "tries" and that he is reasonable. Yes, if I ask, things will get done (eventually, or straight away accompanied by sighs). But I really fucking resent having to ask. To think about these things. When HE DOESN'T.

With the big jobs (laundry, hoovering, etc) it's almost simpler. I will say "this needs to be done" and we will do it together if laundry, or the hoovering or cleaning bathroom might get done in a few days. Washing up we alternate and do every 2 days (we both detest it). See above point re: thinking about the jobs.

What gets me is the little things. Putting things away. Especially food rubbish. Other rubbish too (from the post etc). Dirty laundry.

But mainly it's just that he NEVER thinks about these things. And he doesn't understand how I can have these things on my mind for days at a time. I have changed and become more slovenly because it is easier than "nagging". Our flat is cluttered to put it nicely. I don't like what I've become.

We've talked about it so many times. I've told him I feel it's disrespectful to me. He says he is just happier to do things when he wants to do them, and that they will get done. This means that every day there is something left out around the living room or kitchen, a yogurt pot, a glass with dried milk in the bottom, etc. I've told him that it affects how much I want sex with him. (Other issues there though, haha). He promises to do more, to make an effort. If I'm around, he will, like cleaning up after himself when he cooks.

(He used to cook more than me, that's changed lately - what a surprise! He likes it more than me too.)

Anyway. At the weekend he went away for a night with mates. A weight was lifted off my shoulders (don't feel I can do chores when he is around, you see. Makes me resentful). I cleared up, hoovered, did some laundry (that he said he was going to do before he went out). Doesn't seem like much but I wrote down what I had done and included all the little things. (Like "put yogurt pot in bin" or "put dirty towels in laundry basket now there is space".)

He came home, said "It looks really tidy, thanks!" and hasn't lifted a finger to do anything since, except wash up last night when it was his turn. The kitchen is a tip again, laundry needs doing, dirty pants on floor in bedroom.

I could go on but I am sure this is getting boring.

We have tried rotas (didn't work for long because we go away to visit family on weekends fairly often) and separating chores (can't agree; he WON'T clean the bathroom every time and will only take the "nice" chores like hoovering and laundry rather than the ones where you get dirty). Besides, this doesn't address the "small" issues.

I think he is lazy. He plays Call of Duty on the PS3 each night for at least 2 hours.

My latest idea is to put up and shut up for a month and write down EVERYTHING that I do. But then what? He always wriggles out of it.

I've read the Politics of Housework. I'm not sure if he thinks I should do it all (maybe he does, but doesn't realise it) or if he is just really lazy. He calls me nagging too.

I am aware that I'm a cliche :( Just so worried that it will be much, much worse when we have kids. Why is it so damn hard?

I'm so unhappy today :( thanks for reading.

Minipie just said a lightbulb thing:

"Have you explained to him that the main "job" with housework is NOT the laundry, or the washing up, or the hoovering. It's the remembering to do all these things (and the little jobs) that is the biggest job. In other words, the taking responsibility. And so if he is going to do half, as he should, then he needs not only to do the jobs but also to remember to do the jobs."

That is an argument I'm going to remember for the rest of my life and it's the one so many people forget to make - the main job is the taking responsibility for it. The most appalling thing is to have to remind your DP to do something he as a compos mentis adult should know needs to be done. It is detestable to infantilise another adult being in that way, I shudder at the thought of it.

I can't get for the life of me where you got the idea that this type of immature loafer is the best you can do.

But I think you need to end this relationship and get some seriousl counselling to improve your self-esteem so you learn that you don't need boys in mens bodies as a partner.

He's disrespectful, immature, passive aggressive and a slattern.

Why on Earth are you wasting your time when you don't even have kids together?

Get out now.

Pithyslicker - no not anti-d pills :)

I feel better now because his bloody team are getting thrashed. Haha!!

Yep I've explained to him. I've told him I hate feeling like his mother. I told him that I felt terrible asking him to pick up the T shirt.

I think he is punishing me. If it is because of his sense of entitlement, I don't think he realises. If it's because I'm bruising his ego, well I think he probably knows.

To be honest quite often when we are discussing stuff he will throw me by changing the subject and I then find it harder to articulate what I want to say. (like earlier with "You think I'm stupid" - irrelevant)

You know I can't think of anything he does take 100% responsibility for really. Not car issues, because we have one each, and it's up to each of us to sort them out. Not finances. Fixing stuff I suppose but how often does that happen? Things like holidays we always book together.

HerBeatitude yes. He's not my son. I can't stand having to ask/tell him to do stuff.

Got some thinking to do. If I decide to cut my losses then nothing can happen quickly because I have nowhere to go :( so need to think about all the practical stuff.

What's there to think about?

Even a flatshare would be better than this cocklodging loser.

Seriously, you don't need this or deserve it.

HB...I have thought that way for years. It is my mantra

That the hardest work is taking the responsibility and not waiting to be reminded/asked/guilt-tripped into doing stuff "as a favour to you"

There is nothing more wearing than to have to do all the thinking, for yourself, and for everyone else too

I thought everyone felt like that until I came on MN. I am serious. I just cannot understand why other people don't get this and why they feel unable to verbalise it to their lazy, fuckwitted partners

Because if you do not, I am afraid it isn't the one who doesn't pull their weight that is the fuckwit, they are the "clever" one who gets everyone else jumping to their tune

Well, I think that women find it hard to articulate that idea, because it is a very unfamiliar one. Because housework has been traditionally "women's work", the fact hat it even involves planning, remembering and thinking, goes completely unnoticed and unremarked. Women don't realise that that's what they're doing because it's not vocalised very often. For them, it's so obvious that that if you want to make a bolognese sauce for supper, you need to have some ingredients available to you and if you don't, you have to cause them to become available, that it doesn't occur to them that what they are doing, is using their forward planning skills. That process hasn't been dignified with that term, because it's only women doing it, and it's only in the trivial area of the domestic sphere, not in the big important world of paid work.

And it doesn't occur to them that their DP's aren't doing it out of a sense of entitlement because that just sounds so retro and outrageous. Nobody discusses that idea outside of feminist circules - we are constantly being told that men don't see dirt, that we have higher standards and are fussier, etc., so of course women internalise that message and reluctantly put it down to their individual partner's "not being very good" at spotting dirt or remembering to do the laundry, even though he has no trouble whatsoever spotting dirt in his car, or remembering to put the screen-wash in.

Hence the reason that so many women can claim that their men are "good" around the house because they do as they're told, failing to see that the only measure of being "good", ie fucking normal is not needing to be told.

true, very true

and I think that you have just articulated infantilising of men by women

this practice does absolutely no good to women at all

because all men are perfectly capable of doing stuff around the house, they just choose to be shit at it

ah, dittany, it never went away [hsmile]

Applauds Fucker and Beatitude.

I am going to start using the term again dittany, with no irony whatsoever

I shall start immediately

< DH looks at me quizzically >

Sorry you've had such a shitty evening BWH.

Is it just me who thinks that accusing someone who has been through a traumatic experience of having a panic attack, as a ruse to get out of housework , has hit a new low?

I agree that he is being a truculent baby in order to put you off ever demanding that he act like an equal partner again.

Your pills and book are not the same as his stinking t-shirt - they are there because that is where you use them, presumably his clothes are not hanging about on the sofa in case he needs a quick change after dribbling on himself?

It is better to find out this stuff sooner than later.

This evening you clocked up:

folding the dry washing
putting it away as well?
hanging up the wet washing
washing up two days worth of dishes

not sure who cooked.

He clocked up:

removing his own dirty t-shirt from the room
hanging up wet washing

His opening gambit tonight was classic "doesn't give a toss"

Sorry he's being such an arse.

Brilliant posts from HB & SF.

I admire so many of you on this thread, but some of the stuff here has lost the plot.

It is a nonsense to invent a motivation for someone's action ("accusing someone of having a panic attack" to get out of housework) and then declare that motivation to be proof of evilness.

I think the OP is with the wrong man, but as a general feminist argument this has descended into competitive indignation and hyperbole.

It is not infantalising to take responsibility for things in a family that includes another adult member. Remembering stuff and reminding someone of things is a normal part of any productive relationship.

People are human, some are forgetful, some are a bit slobby, some are lazy. We are all motivated by different things.

Finding the best way to live happily with another person cannot come from a refusal to accept shortcomings or make up for the other person's weakness.

My chorestastic DH is terribly untidy. Like most lazy people I'm pretty neat. Should I get angry that he leaves teacups all over the place or give him a reading list because his side of our bedroom is covered in odd socks and old pants?

Or should I pick up after him because he does more washing up?

I'm a planner, he less so. Is it infantalising that I do the shopping list and menu planning every week? That he asks me every day what's for dinner (even if he's cooking)?

How kindly would any of you take to being handed a book to read by your husband the point of which was to get you to accept his way of doing things?

Because I would not like it.

I would not be with someone to whom I felt I had to give such a book, spidoo.

I would have ended the relationship long before it got to the stage of marriage or having kids.

But spidookly - you sound happy, your DH sounds happy. That's what makes this situation different - the OP is not happy because her partner is not contributing at all really (bar sharing the cooking) to their life, and thereby tacitly expecting her to tidy, pick up after him, clean, hoover, clean bathroom, do washing etc. It's not the same.

And WRT panic attack - if someone is clearly crying and you've heard them crying before and that's what crying sounds like, then saying "are you having a panic attack?" and causing a whole row about whether they are or not (rather than, say, asking if they are ok and offering them a hug or a cup of tea) is clearly a distraction technique. And the fact that the OP says she has been through a traumatic experience that leads to panic attacks in many people just makes it so much worse somehow. Like he is trying to portray her as emotionally abnormal, just one symptom of which is her wanting to sort out a fair way of doing the housework. Maybe it's a wrong connection to make, but I made it.

spid, your relationship works for you

this relationship isn't working for OP

we may not agree with the extent of her indignation (I don't actually...I think she needs to stop documenting who does what in such detail and make it clear she will not be used as a skivvy) but there is no denying this bloke is fucking with her head

the fact that she is allowing it to happen is what would worry me

I agree with Spidoo - your DP isn't evil incarnate - you're just incompatible in terms of living together.

Fwiw I suspect he is feeling like you're trying to change him and that you're dissatisfied with him, which is never a nice thing to feel from a partner. Sorry to be the devil's advocate because I do understand why you were crying- but he may well have thought you were trying to manipulate him by doing so.

I'm a feminist who believes in equality in housework, but it sounds like you have different standards. I am bonkers about the living room being tidy, can't relax if it isn't, but I am blind
to stacks of unwashed dishes it doesn't make me selfish or evil though and if it bothered my DH as much as it bothers you, we wouldn't be married or still together. No-one's perfect - the question is, is this a deal-breaker for you- and it sounds like it is.

Her unhappiness is reason enough to leave. After such a short time and no commitments it's a fairly simple calculation.

All the feminist principles being brought into it are a distraction here. They are contributing self-righteousness but no clear thinking about the individual situation.

There is no general feminist principle about t-shirts on the sofa. It might signify a lazy bastard who expects a woman to skivvy after him, or it might mean you live with an untidy person who pulls their weight in other ways.

Responding to this situation demands a clear view both of the man in question and of yourself. Luce Irigiray won't help.

I would find living with someone who had a habit of running off for a little weep if I wasn't pleasing them to be a total headfuck. If I was presented with a book as this fellow was I would tell the kind personal librarian to shove it up their arse.

Again, I'd have left before I gave someone such a book.

BlairWaldorfsSalad The question I think you need to ask yourself is this: Are you BOTH committed to relationship?
If you are, then I suppose this housework thing can be sorted with negotiation.
If one of you isn't (or both aren't) committed then I would advise leaving.
Casual cohabitation may be socially acceptable now but the downside is that people sort of feel that it is somehow expected of them to live together when really they should not.
While from a moral point of view, I am not against casual cohabitation, from a psychological viewpoint it can be very dermoralising living with someone when either you or they (or both of you) are not really into each other.

Re the book thing.

He knows I am interested in feminism, and separately from our housework issues, he has said that he doesn't really want me to discuss my interest with him as he doesn't really know what it's about. I've said that as I would like to be able to share it with him (because he is my partner and I want to be able to bring it into conversations without worrying that he doesn't get it) then maybe he would read one of my books. He has already agreed that he would be happy to, aside from the housework thing.

Last night the discussions went on again. He really doesn't seem to think that there is an issue with his level of housework at all and apparently I need to give him a chance and he will do things. (He did however say that he thought he might always need a bit of prompting for some things and I went slightly mental - after that I think he understood a bit better)

He said something that made me ask this:

Me: Do you honestly think that there is a biological, genetic difference between me and you that makes me care more about housework?

Him: Oh yes definitely!

Me: Are you serious?!?!?!

Him: There definitely is a gene. Think about it - people I know with kids always say their girls like to keep themselves clean and the boys don't.

Me: Don't you think it might be nurture rather than nature?

Him: Well twins then, nurtured the same, so no.

Me: But people buy girls toys like prams and boys get cars and stuff. Regardless of whether they're twins.

He stumbled a bit here. I told him I had a good book that devoted half to this topic. He said "Just as well I've already told you I'll read them."

Why haven't I just decided to split up? Well, he keeps insisting he wants to learn about feminism (I'm not forcing him) and that he loves me and wants us to continue. And I know that over the past couple of days I have got upset a lot and things have generally been tense. I just want to let things calm down a bit and see what happens on the housework front. And to have a nice weekend away to see if I can remind myself of the good things.

It's your life, blair.

If you want to waste time on incompatible people, go for it.

I know I did when I was younger and before I had children.

I learned from it, though.

I learned life's too short to waste my time.

Now, I've got kids myself, I have little patience for adults in teenagers' bodies. I've also learned a new kind of love that pretty much elipses anything on the romantic front.

blair
You say "he loves me"

Do you love him? If so, fab - but the fact that it's not there made me ponder. Your feels are just as important as his in this, y'know. In fact, that's sort of the point of all of this.