Lazy partner

[BlairWaldorfsHairband]

Don't know where to start, just feel like I need a massive rant. Sorry for yet another thread about housework.

What the hell can I do? We've lived together 6 months or so, I feel like things are slipping out of my grasp. Today it's all come to a head and I am so unhappy (he doesn't know it at the moment).

I will try to keep it short.

He thinks he "tries" and that he is reasonable. Yes, if I ask, things will get done (eventually, or straight away accompanied by sighs). But I really fucking resent having to ask. To think about these things. When HE DOESN'T.

With the big jobs (laundry, hoovering, etc) it's almost simpler. I will say "this needs to be done" and we will do it together if laundry, or the hoovering or cleaning bathroom might get done in a few days. Washing up we alternate and do every 2 days (we both detest it). See above point re: thinking about the jobs.

What gets me is the little things. Putting things away. Especially food rubbish. Other rubbish too (from the post etc). Dirty laundry.

But mainly it's just that he NEVER thinks about these things. And he doesn't understand how I can have these things on my mind for days at a time. I have changed and become more slovenly because it is easier than "nagging". Our flat is cluttered to put it nicely. I don't like what I've become.

We've talked about it so many times. I've told him I feel it's disrespectful to me. He says he is just happier to do things when he wants to do them, and that they will get done. This means that every day there is something left out around the living room or kitchen, a yogurt pot, a glass with dried milk in the bottom, etc. I've told him that it affects how much I want sex with him. (Other issues there though, haha). He promises to do more, to make an effort. If I'm around, he will, like cleaning up after himself when he cooks.

(He used to cook more than me, that's changed lately - what a surprise! He likes it more than me too.)

Anyway. At the weekend he went away for a night with mates. A weight was lifted off my shoulders (don't feel I can do chores when he is around, you see. Makes me resentful). I cleared up, hoovered, did some laundry (that he said he was going to do before he went out). Doesn't seem like much but I wrote down what I had done and included all the little things. (Like "put yogurt pot in bin" or "put dirty towels in laundry basket now there is space".)

He came home, said "It looks really tidy, thanks!" and hasn't lifted a finger to do anything since, except wash up last night when it was his turn. The kitchen is a tip again, laundry needs doing, dirty pants on floor in bedroom.

I could go on but I am sure this is getting boring.

We have tried rotas (didn't work for long because we go away to visit family on weekends fairly often) and separating chores (can't agree; he WON'T clean the bathroom every time and will only take the "nice" chores like hoovering and laundry rather than the ones where you get dirty). Besides, this doesn't address the "small" issues.

I think he is lazy. He plays Call of Duty on the PS3 each night for at least 2 hours.

My latest idea is to put up and shut up for a month and write down EVERYTHING that I do. But then what? He always wriggles out of it.

I've read the Politics of Housework. I'm not sure if he thinks I should do it all (maybe he does, but doesn't realise it) or if he is just really lazy. He calls me nagging too.

I am aware that I'm a cliche :( Just so worried that it will be much, much worse when we have kids. Why is it so damn hard?

I'm so unhappy today :( thanks for reading.

It sounds like your DP wants to compromise, which is what a good relationship is all about. You have tried living in a messy house, he's up for trying to step up with the cleaning - best of luck and hope you both feel happy and not pressured.

Hopefully he'll see how having a clean house makes you happy and he'll be more aware of the amount if work it is to keep it nice.

I'm messy and my DH is clean, but we muddle through - we argue about it occasionally, but we do meet halfway. As you say, no-one on here can judge your whole relationship based on one aspect of it. If you're genuinely controlling and OCD-ish, you need a similar partner IMO but you sound like you're going to try to work it out.

Good luck [hsmile]

I would never say (or think) DH was petty if he decided to just wash his own clothes and leave me to do my own. I don't expect him to clean up after me and do my jobs.

I think that is important - does he expect the work to be done (by you) but shirk his share? Is he leaving the bathroom for ages because he genuinely just doesn't quite get around to it, or because he expects you to give in and do it eventually.

Also, there's only so gross you can be before you are asking too much someone else to put up with it.

Don't think this is small though - for all our mismatch in this area, DH and I never fight about housework. This stuff matters. How well you do, and how happy you are, keeping home together is an important indication of what your life will be like if you get married and have children.

If there's this much stress over keeping a small flat clean, that is not a good sign.

Spidookly, if your husband can't relax until all the chores are done, and you sit down and chill instead of cleaning the kitchen, then surely his options are a) clean the kitchen every time, or b) never relax in the evenings? I mean, all very well to say it's up to him to choose to do your share instead of leaving it for you, but if you know that he can't relax otherwise, then you're deliberately making a choice that will result in not having to do your share yourself.

When I moved in with mine, he had by far the higher standards. I raised my game, because I absolutely think it's a more loving act to put in a bit of effort than to expect your partner to live in an environment that they find squalid. And housework isn't rocket science; if it doesn't come naturally, you learn how to do it.

The OP is already in a bad position, here. She's having to monitor the equality in the relationship, and whoever has that job is in the more vulnerable position. I'm glad you're going to try the "chore time" approach, Blair, because really, what your household needs is an understanding that you both sit down when the work is done. And if you have to be a bitch about it, best you find out now whether it's a dealbreaker for him then when you're married with children and he still thinks that his soldier games take precedence.

Where did you live before?

Staying with him to make your housing more affordable (ie for the money) isn't a good sign, you do realise that dont you?

So sorry about what happened to you Blair, I hope you are coming to terms with it as well as possible [hsad]

"The OP is already in a bad position, here. She's having to monitor the equality in the relationship, and whoever has that job is in the more vulnerable position." - god tortoise that is so true. No wonder so many women are knackered, having to not only do the work but think about it and fight about the injustice of it as well.

OP I really hope that works out for you both. Did you agree about separate "areas" of reponsibility? So he knows e.g. living room/bathroom are "his" and you will not be supervising?

Let us know how it goes :)

Yep but that isn't the only reason we moved in together! It was kind of a joke answer. We used to work at the same place (though only started going out just before I left) and also lived very close together (2 min walk). When we got together, it was inevitable that we should want to spend all our time together and it got to a stage where we were alternating evenings with each other. It just became silly that we had our own flats and were paying double the rent and bills (so it was a part of it).

Tortures even though you weren't addressing me you've summed up my issue perfectly! That's exactly how I feel - that regardless of whether he considers housework below him, or is just too lazy, ultimately he knows that I don't like it and is choosing to do nothing about it.

Last night I brought it up again - probably should have left it alone but hey ho. As soon as I mentioned the word "dealbreaker" things changed. He said that it really upset him to think that I could be giving him an ultimatum over this. I said that surely unless he had an issue with doing his fair share, there was no reason for him to be upset. I just wanted to make sure he knew what a big deal it has become to me. He said that it made him feel like I must not care that much about him because I would break up over something so trivial.

He just does not understand how I can see housework as a big deal. Of course it's not a big deal to him, he never worries about it!

Then he went all quiet with no warning and when I questioned this he said he needed to think about whether he could live with my "ultimatum". I was sure he was just trying to scare me as he felt threatened himself so I asked him if that was what he was doing and he said no . But it was so like "You've upset me, now I'm going to upset you"

Why do men have such fragile egos?

Oh and he asked me if I would rather be single as apparently that's what it sounded like.

I said "Well, since I wouldn't have to worry about who was going to do what, and would just get on with 100% knowing that the chores were all mine, then yes." (Told him I resented the implication that I would remain single rather than find someone else!)

Maybe he should read Wifework, but I want to read it first - sounds v interesting!

Aargh Blair I know you've said you've read it but for anyone else this is the script straight out of The Politics of Housework

""Housework is too trivial to even talk about." MEANING: It's even more trivial to do. Housework is beneath my status. My purpose in life is to deal with matters of significance. Yours is to deal with matters of insignificance. You should do the housework."

"As he felt himself backed into a comer laden with dirty dishes, brooms, mops and reeking garbage, his front teeth grew longer and pointier, his fingernails haggled and his eyes grew wild. Housework trivial? Not on your life! Just try to share the burden."

Has he read it? Maybe he should.

You could ask him if he would rather be single, because that what it sounds like if he is more attached to his freedom from the odd bit of tidying and wiping than to his life with you.

Yes EAM! I think I will ask him to read it. I have printed out a copy and highlighted the bits I think most apply (hoping this will be seen as helpful rather than patronising or something).

Er....hope so BWH

I would probably draw a cartoon werewolf on it as well to soften the blow [hgrin]

OK because he's got this sense of male entitlement about housework, he really doesn't understand why it's important, so he needs it explained to him in terms he'll understand.

I would try 2 tacks:

1. I want to live with someone who loves me and respects me and doesn't think I am his skivvy and cares if I am unhappy and uncomfortable in my environment. When you tell me that housework is too trivial to break up about, you are in effect telling me that a) you consider me to be your skivvy, which I find disrespectful and hurtful and b) that you think my feelings are too trivial to break up about. My feelings are in fact, not trivial and will be the most important factor in whether I leave you, just as yours will be the most important factor in whether you leave me.

1. If you have more leisure time than me, or are more comfortable than me, then our relationship is not equal and that makes me feel unloved and disrespected. And I want to have a relationship which is... blah di blah, you get the picture.

One of those arguments may penetrate. If neither of them do, I would leave. Because that's what this housework business is all about - whether the person you live with cherishes and values and respects you enough, to ensure that you are broadly happy within the relationship. If you live with someone knowing that there is something in his or her life which they are really unahppy about, which you could solve, unless it's something utterly unreasonable (like they want you to help them torture kittens, or submit to grotesque sexual abuse or something, and you won't agree), then you are shitting on them. Make him know it and if he's not interested, leave him, because if he doesn't want to know it, then he doesn't really esteem or love you.

6+3

Excellent post HerB.

I love "My feelings are in fact, not trivial and will be the most important factor in whether I leave you" - and think that might come in handy for the OP.

(OP I'm really taking against him what with this and his "kids will have MY name attitude" on the other thread - hope he's worthy of you in other respects)

Tortures*
"Spidookly, if your husband can't relax until all the chores are done, and you sit down and chill instead of cleaning the kitchen, then surely his options are a) clean the kitchen every time, or b) never relax in the evenings? I mean, all very well to say it's up to him to choose to do your share instead of leaving it for you, but if you know that he can't relax otherwise, then you're deliberately making a choice that will result in not having to do your share yourself. "

No his options are

1. clean the kitchen on the days I haven't got it done (I don't NEVER do it)

2 chill the fuck out and let me get around to it in my own time

He does 2, and we often have a messy kitchen.

Are you suggesting that I have to do whatever he says, whenever he says it because he "can't relax"? Being uptight about housework is a choice.

Wanting the house to be pristine all the time isn't any more morally virtuous than getting up early in the morning, despite what a lot of neat freaks and early risers think.

Some people like doing those things, others don't. Where a couple disagrees they need to come to an accommodation that doesn't put either of them in the position of being a housekeeper to the other.

I could never relax if I thought it was my job to be responsible for how relaxed my husband is.

It's my job to love him and take enthusiastic part in our shared life. I do that.

Honestly, there is no way I am prepared to "up my game" to his level. He's practically a survivalist. There is literally nothing in the house he can't do/fix. He can darn ffs, who does that anymore?

He's the sort of person who in a spare five minutes that most people (well me) would use to sit on their arse looking out the window and trying to decide what job to do next, would clean his hiking boots, or change the shower head. He is literally the most efficient person I have ever met. There is no downtime.

I try to make him stop working and smell the flowers a bit. I have to be stern when I offer to take the kids out for a few hours so he can have some time to himself and he starts talking about clearing the shed out, or tidying the loft.

He is the most wonderful person I know, and I love him dearly, but I don't think it would be fair to anyone in our family (including him) for me to try to be like that too.

Sorry for digression OP.

He is wrong.

Housework is not trivial. How work and money are shared within a relationship are probably the two most important issues.

There isn't a right way and a wrong way to sort out jobs and finances, but approximately equal disposable money/spare time are crucial, as well as respect and kindness.

This all sounds like so much hard work. Do you want to spend the rest of your life arguing about housework?

Spidookly, I couldn't agree more. People are just different.
I am a super-tidy person and I can't even relax until things are all tidy and put away. I used to watch TV but not even see what was on because I'd be looking at a bit of fluff on the carpet, or how the books were misaligned on the shelf (I know, I know).
My husband is just like the OP's. He grew up in a house where his mum did all the cooking, and darning and all that(she is Italian and loves to look after people) and they had a full-time cleaner to pick up after them all. I swear he never picked a sock up in his life.
When we got married, his mum said to me, "oh I am so sorry dear I spoiled Mr Chances terribly and he just doesn't know how to do anything".
As you can imagine, things got quite bad a few months after the living-together bliss wore off and there were many stand-offs with me shouting at the back of his head while he played X Box 360 while brandishing a scrubbing brush in my hand. With swearing.
But you know what? He has got a bit better, I have relaxed a bit and I am paying a lady £20 a week to come and clean the bathroom, kitchen, change the beds and do the oven/fridge and things. We can't really afford it but we just buy fewer drinks, or eat out one night less, and we stopped the Starbucks habit.
In the end I asked myself, am I willing to lose Mr Chances over this? And the answer was a resounding NO.

Oh my god, I'm sitting here crying and I really need some feminist hugs.

This is what happened tonight. It's going to be a long one and I'm sorry in advance. Don't have to read it all I just needed to get it out really.

I went to the supermarket after work (including deciding what to eat tonight) and he picked me up. We walked through the door and he said "Well, looks like a chore free night for me tonight." I said nothing. (Obviously I was shellshocked - I expect there to be some stuff to do every night for a while until we get the place sorted a bit.) We went into the bedroom and started getting changed. I think I said "Can you really not think of anything that needs doing tonight?" (It was my turn to wash up) and he said "Hmm no... oh maybe the washing." There was some in the machine and some on the airer so yes. But he seemed to want confirmation from me. I said "Well then you can do that while I wash up." Cue argument about how washing up shouldn't count as we have an agreement and that's separate. To keep the peace I said we could do the washing first and then I would wash up.

He had already said the first thing he needed to do was to write a message on ebay (only because he forgot at lunch) and I had agreed. So I folded the dry washing while he did that. I then took it into the bedroom and put mine away. At this point I started to cry and went into the bathroom to blow my nose. A minute later he opened the door, came in and said "I thought you were having a panic attack!" Long pointless argument then ensued, something like this:

Me: I thought you didn't even know what a panic attack was until yesterday. (He asked me what was happening to Billy in Eastenders.)

Him: Oh you think I'm stupid.

Me: No, you asked me what was happening to him and since I had to explain I assumed you didn't previously know what it was.

Him: Well I thought you were having one.

Me: I've never had one before and you've heard me cry like that before.

Him: I just didn't see why you would be crying.

He said that when he made his comment when he came in, he hadn't remembered the washing and hadn't meant the little things like putting dirty stuff in the kitchen. I said that it would have meant a lot to me if he had thought ahead and made an effort. He told me to relax. I said that all I wanted was an acknowledgement that he had upset me with the comment. Finally I got an apology for that ("Wouldn't you rather have an apology I really mean?")

Went into the living room and hung up the wet washing together. He again said that he didn't see the point in getting upset about it all so I mentioned I had something I would like him to read. He said that of course he would read it but not necessarily tonight (big football game on. Fair enough.) But then he said "What is it?" and asked where I had seen it. I told him here, so he said "Is it ok if I find some anti-feminist stuff to show you after?" I said "Is that a joke?" and he said yes but I wasn't really sure.

Anyway it was all very wearing. I felt all shaky and shit, it was like everything he said was to punish me and have a little dig. I asked him to put away a dirty T-shirt that was on the sofa (after much deliberation; it makes me feel shit doing it) and he made a huge deal of it then told me I was being over the top. He tried to compare it to things of mine I have in the living room, specifically a book, pills I'm on and moisturiser that I sit on the sofa to put on every morning. Another argument.

I went into the kitchen and started washing up. He went off into the bedroom with the T shirt, I assumed to put away his clean clothes. He didn't come back for ages, I realised he was in the bathroom and that he was cleaning it (earlier on he insisted I never clean the bathroom properly and that he did it more recently than me - when I know that I did it a couple of weeks ago. "I remember stuff like that").

Finished washing up and he came out. "Did you get any orange juice?" (He had a sniffle this morning.) I said yes. He looked in the fridge and asked me if he was going blind. I said maybe it was in the boot of the car. He went into the living room and said "Oh there's a bag here." There was only 2 bags and one hadn't had kitchen stuff in it and I had already emptied it. HE HAD BROUGHT IT IN AND FUCKING LEFT IT IN THE LIVING ROOM AND ACTUALLY BLAMED ME FOR THERE NOT BEING ORANGE JUICE IN THE FRIDGE. He obviously thought it would walk there by itself.

He then put half the stuff away (deliberately I wonder? punishing me by taking me too literally even though I was still washing up?) and sat down on the sofa and started playing his game. Now the bloody football is on.

He seems to think he has a better idea of what I meant now, despite me being horribly upset earlier and him not seeming to care. I know he didn't really think I was having a panic attack but just wanted to make me feel stupid for crying loudly.

Oh, and he wasn't cleaning the bathroom, he was having a big stinking shit. At least he scrubbed.

I'm so angry and upset. I am getting some important exam results on Friday and we are going away for a long weekend that's all paid for. Ironically I don't want to cancel as I will actually be free of chores for 3 days.

I don't know what to do. I am starting to seriously consider leaving now though. I'm better than all this shit. Never thought it would happen to me.

Guess I will see what happens the rest of this week. Only 2 more days.

I've started looking at him and hating him (earlier when I was crying and he was accusing me of thinking he was stupid and telling me to chill about it all and I was just so upset).

Btw you are all lovely and thanks for hanging in there with my horrible moany thread. :)

You know what?

He's punishing you for having even raised the issue in the first place.

His sense of entitlement is so strong, that he is utterly furious that you have challenged him and so he is quite simply punishing you. If you tell him that he will deny it, as he may not even realise consciously that he is doing it.

I really think you have a deep seated problem here. He sounds like he doesn't actually care about you, and that is why this stuff matters. It's not about the bloody t-shirt - it's about the lack of respect or care. As long as you're being his skivvy or putting up with living in a pig sty until you crack, he's nice to you. But as soon as you demand some basic respect from him, he resents it so much that he deliberately makes it unbearable to live with him.

I think you need to do some really hard thinking about this guy.

OP, your DH is clearly wrong about cleaning. Your standards sound perfectly normal (for adults as opposed to, say, teenagers) and he is clearly not doing his share. And I can completely see why you are frustrated to the point of tears.

That said, I hope you don't mind me saying this, but I do think that you getting very upset about it may not be helping your overall "cause". For example, if you start crying because he didn't remember there was laundry to do, he is likely to think "she is just a loon about housework" and then he will feel free to ignore your very sensible arguments about the subject. Being relentlessly logical is probably a better tack than crying... I am not criticising you for crying at all, as I say I can see why you did, I just think it might undermine your arguments.

Have you explained to him that the main "job" with housework is NOT the laundry, or the washing up, or the hoovering. It's the remembering to do all these things (and the little jobs) that is the biggest job. In other words, the taking responsibility. And so if he is going to do half, as he should, then he needs not only to do the jobs but also to remember to do the jobs. And the reason you got upset is because you felt, yet again, like it was your responsibility to remember all the jobs. Tell him you feel as if you have a teenage son rather than a partner.

Good luck. I do think you will get there in the end. It just may take more than 6 months.

You mentioned you are on pills. Is there something up?

OP, do not waste more than 6 months of your precious life trying to teach someone how to do housework to your standards.

You guys have reached an impasse here and TBH I think your weeping in the bathroom and demands that he read feminist tracts is no better than his weird assertions about having chore-free nights and trying to get out of jobs counting eBay as a chore.

If you think he's lazy and expects you to do all the work so he doesn't have to, then dump him.

If you think you just fundamentally disagree about how much housework needs to be done but he's a good guy and you love him then try to take the poison out of this issue and come back to it when you're both feeling a little calmer.

I think it's silly to demand that someone think about things and take responsibility for them if they are happy to do their share.

Aren't there things that he thinks of, e.g. organising social occasions, maintenance of car/house/boiler?

If he's just along for the ride and you are the only one spending mental energy on your shared life, then bin him. If you both have different strengths, then exploit that and don't get worked up about who thinks of what.

But again, should it really be this much work?

BWH - huge hug. I can't add much more to what people have already said, but it's true, it's not about the tshirt, or the washing or any of it. It's the principle of it, and the ways people behave will be carried through to other stuff. And the petty making you feel bad for mentioning it is just nasty.

Not all men are like this. I used to have a partner who was ridiculous about all kinds of stuff, like this and more. I couldn't bring myself to leave him for years, I did and then instantly wondered what they hell I put up with it for. Of course my situation is not yours, so that may not be the solution that makes sense for you, but don't be scared they're all like this. They are absolutely not.

Huge hug again.

And FWIW, you cry if it's what you want to do. I cry, and my husband knows I do, and he deals with the way I behave as it's me he loves. My ex didn't, he said I had to be logical. You can be whoever you are and act however you like imo.