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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism chat thread

1001 replies

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 25/09/2010 10:46

Hello

Been saying for ages that it'd be nice to have an area for just saying hi, letting off some steam and sharing the little things that don't warrant a whole thread.

So, I'll start...

My brother made me :o:o:o last night when we were talking about some crap sexist song. And he said (in all honesty) - well this is just one of the millions of ways the patriarchy keeps itself going.

Also got the updated email from the Feminism in London conference this morning - can't wait.

Anyone else?

OP posts:
EngelbertFustianMcSlinkydog · 20/02/2011 20:03

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FlamingoBingo · 20/02/2011 20:25

That's interesting, Engelbert. DH and I certainly don't see eachother as property, but I guess we did promise to be kind to oneanother and that means being sensitive to the other person's feelings. I know DH would be devastated if I slept with someone else; and I would be if he did. So neither of us do.

We also agreed that we would stay together forever, unless one of us broke the promises we made eachother. We have already had patches where one or the other has felt 'out of love' with the other and, with time and effort, we've come through them and felt even stronger afterwards, so we both kind of feel even more that we would work through bad patches (again, with the caveat that neither of us has broken the promises we had made eachother - we wouldn't feel beholden to work on the marriage if one of us had done something that really hurt the other, for example).

EngelbertFustianMcSlinkydog · 20/02/2011 20:57

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sakura · 21/02/2011 01:21

SQ , I so LOLed at this
" I wouldn't fancy sharing teh sex around as well though

OTOH Sakura maybe you just need to take the blue pill, join the mothers union, and everything will be fine "

FlamingoBingo One of the great beauties of living in a different country is actually seeing how arbitrary cultural rules are. So family bed-ing ,let's say, which I presume means the family sleeping together, is the only option for the majority of people, because everyone lives in small flats. There just isn't the space. They also have futons, so people don'T have beds. My wealthy friend actually has a bedroom for each of her kids plus a master bedroom (very unusual here) but none of them sleep in their respective rooms. Instead they all sleep on the floor higgeldy piggeldy in a small room with tatami mats. IT saves on housework!!

Englelbert Yeah, marriage works for me. I think it's the children, isn't it. I do think marriage works when it comes to making a nest for children.
The conclusion I have reached is this: because we live in a patriarchy, it is easier, and safer in some ways (not others), for a mother to invest in living with the father of her child.
If we lived in a matriarchy, the investment wouldn't be worth it, probably.

sakura · 21/02/2011 01:30

Flamingo, You can't really call it a fetish when so many women around the world have no choice but to be bound to marriage for cultural or economic reasons. But I think the word fetish is good for showing how flimsly the institution of marriage is. To hear popular culture (and religions!) tell it, we are supposed to believe that marriage is natural, but when I had DH's colleague for lunch yesterday, I saw all the cultural trappings attached to it, and it seemed anything but a natural path for a person to take.

sakura · 21/02/2011 01:37

ooooh, I've just realised that that is precisely why men are desperate to hold onto the patriarchy. Because women wouldn't bother with them otherwise

Blackduck · 21/02/2011 07:43

Sakura, isn't that kind of what she argues in wifework? That marriages actually work more for men than they do for women? (not all marriages/relationships of course). I am finding this really hard at the moment becuase dp and I had a good relationship, but last year it all went pear-shaped and, in fact, that was just a realisation of how off the rails it had actually been for sometime. I have huge resentment towards him and know this is going to take a huge effort to get past and I am just not sure i want to bother....(whoops, sorry about that, bit of a vent there....)

swallowedAfly · 21/02/2011 07:58

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swallowedAfly · 21/02/2011 08:01

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sakura · 21/02/2011 09:29

SaF oh absolutely. In an evolved society it's the mother-baby that is the central unit and everyone else are helpers. I try to enact this in my life somewhat, which is why I decided to become a SAHM. SAHMing has its own problems (economic dependancy) but there is no question that my primary identity is as a mother not a wife, and DH supports this role (I co-slept with the baby, while DH slept separately for some time after the birth so we could get maximum sleep, but also to give me space, that sort of thing)

I've got a book I haven't read yet called "The Neutered Mother, The Sexual Family and other twentieth century tragedies" by Martha Fineman. Here's the blurb:

"Unlike other work focusing on similar themes, The Neutered MOther argues that it is the nurturing tie between mother and child, and not the sexual bond between husband and wife, that should be protected and subsidized as the center of society's concern for the "family" "

Looks interesting. I'll let you know Smile

Blackduck yes she argues that marriages work more for women than men, but I guess I'm thinking about how the whole show would fall apart if we lived in a matriarchy>

and that this is why such brutal and violent measures against women are deployed to keep the patriarchal status quo: in medicine, in the judicial system (women go to jail for a long time for killing an abuser but men get let off with a few years for killing their wives), rape culture, keeping women poor. IT's really a brutal regime.

Of course, women would still love men, but then it really would be their choice to do so... but the patriarchy doesn't want to leave anything to chance.

sakura · 21/02/2011 09:32

"She explains that the symbol of the child may stand for the elderly, the ill or the disabled, just as the symbol of the mother is not strictly tied to gender...

swallowedAfly · 21/02/2011 09:34

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sakura · 21/02/2011 09:58

I agree with you about seeing a problem in the "exclusive little pair". The concept of the nuclear family is extremely narcissistic. I think if the human race is to survive and not wipe itself out through war we are going to have to devise a more altruistic system than this (as Lenin often mentions)

HerBeX · 21/02/2011 10:15

"the nurturing tie between mother and child, and not the sexual bond between husband and wife, that should be protected and subsidized as the center of society's concern for the "family" "

Someone tell that patriarch David Cameron, would you?

sakura · 21/02/2011 10:31

I know... he's set the women's movement back about 25 years Sad

Blackduck vent away... Sorry to hear about your marriage. Now are you sure it's not got anything to do with you swallowing the red pill!

swallowedAfly · 21/02/2011 10:33

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EngelbertFustianMcSlinkydog · 21/02/2011 11:27

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Blackduck · 21/02/2011 13:17

Sakura - combination of red pill and complete meltdown of 'career'. Made me realise I had spent alot of time doing things becuase I thought I ought to or some such nonsence and that I had turned into my mother! Also realisation I was actually getting zero emotional support from dp (its too long and too boring a story to go into, but needless to say decisions need to be made...)

Unrulysun · 21/02/2011 16:39

There was an article about being brought up on a kibbutz in children's homes on Saturday which highlighted how it destroyed the writer's relationship with his parents. I think that reinforces the point about the mother and child needing to be at the centre.

I also feel that the point about women rushing around trying to make everything normal for the husband is a very good one; our NCT teacher really pissed me off, wittering about ensuring that you spent time with your husband without the baby, that he got to spend time alone etc etc. With a newborn? There is no bloody time when you have a newborn IME.

SardineQueen · 21/02/2011 16:40

For me the appeal of some kind of communal living came when I had children. I think that bringing up children in our society is very difficult as we live in these tiny isolated domestic units. It would be so much easier if there was a gang of children in the middle with some adults keeping an eye on things. The children would have a ball and it would be so much easier than this whole doing it by yourself sitting in your house by yourself thing that we tend to do. I mean I know it's not like that completely, there are groups and family and friends to go and see and so on but still a lot of it seems to be rather isolated and rather intense and so completely separated from everything else that goes on. I don't know if I'm putting this very well. What I know is that when I go on holiday with my friends who have children a similar age, the children all have a ball, there is babysitting available all the time, the whole burden of cooking and housework and childcare seems to be lessened. And of course there are always otehr adults there talk to. It's good, better, as a model I think.

swallowedAfly · 21/02/2011 17:23

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swallowedAfly · 21/02/2011 17:25

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Prolesworth · 21/02/2011 17:27

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swallowedAfly · 21/02/2011 17:31

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SardineQueen · 21/02/2011 17:58
Grin

And aha. I am a teeny bit bossy. But eversoeverso bright Grin

Also it wouldn't just be the women looking after the children. Bottom line is I want to be able to ditch the kids with DH and go off and do something else. Which is exactly what I do on holday Grin

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