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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism chat thread

1001 replies

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 25/09/2010 10:46

Hello

Been saying for ages that it'd be nice to have an area for just saying hi, letting off some steam and sharing the little things that don't warrant a whole thread.

So, I'll start...

My brother made me :o:o:o last night when we were talking about some crap sexist song. And he said (in all honesty) - well this is just one of the millions of ways the patriarchy keeps itself going.

Also got the updated email from the Feminism in London conference this morning - can't wait.

Anyone else?

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Prolesworth · 16/02/2011 22:15

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ElephantsAndMiasmas · 17/02/2011 01:43

hello all

possibility of outing myself, but I met Lynne Featherstone earlier (in a meeting, not me alone!) and asked her why the libdems were doing a worse job of appearing woman-friendly than the tories are, and asked what she was going to do about it :o

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swallowedAfly · 17/02/2011 07:24

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SardineQueen · 17/02/2011 08:16

Is it me or are things going backwards with regard to people's ideas about feminism / women's rights recently?

There seem to be more threads with people saying how they can literally see no problem whatsoever with he proliferation of porny images of women everywhere.

When LGBG started I am sure that most women on MN agreed with it. I'm not sure that is the case now, the message seems to have changed to it's all fine, let's not change anything, in fact more would be better.

Or am I just noticing it more?

SardineQueen · 17/02/2011 08:17

Proles blimey, what did she say?

swallowedAfly · 17/02/2011 08:57

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swallowedAfly · 17/02/2011 08:58

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Prolesworth · 17/02/2011 10:25

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AgeingGrace · 17/02/2011 10:57

From my middle-aged viewpoint: yes, things are going backwards culturally. By and large the legislative protections are in place now, but a whole generation of women (mine) has failed to gain equal power and equal pay. As long as the legislation remains - and is used - that should continue to change but, my god, it's slow!

I'm not so worried about increasing cultural sexualisation because I think it's a fashion and should not affect the real issues. (Though I fail to see why female singers now have to perform in their knickers!) But a new generation of women is still making excuses for bad male behaviour, carrying too much shame & blame, and expecting too little. I can only suppose my lot failed to teach our children enough strong values.

In these threads I often feel feminist anger is too narrowly focused and insufficiently put to practical use. But this is only one small window on it; I don't keep up with mainstream feminist thought (is there any??).
But if 20-year-olds cringe from the word "feminist", feminism is failing them.

vezzie · 17/02/2011 11:34

Prolesworth, do you really not report things specifically in the feminism section because you don't want MN Towers to think of it negatively?

do you mean - this section attracts more than its fair share of troublemakers and they shouldn't be reported as it will get a "black mark" for being associated with trouble? or - am I misunderstanding?

this is sad

Prolesworth · 17/02/2011 11:41

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vezzie · 17/02/2011 11:46

Oh ok I see what you mean - no you don't want to be seen to be getting all precious about someone disagreeing with you.

It was the "more trouble than its worth" bit that made me feel a bit sad - it reminded me of a sketch where the single token woman on a "question time" type show walked onto the stage to find she didn't have a chair and apologetically crouched up at the desk rather than ask for anything

AgeingGrace · 17/02/2011 11:46

I don't think so. Mumsnet has forum-wide rules which are clear: basically, they reflect the law on harassment, incitement and defamation. A group of feminists should be able to manage heckling - and you do :)

Prolesworth · 17/02/2011 11:54

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vezzie · 17/02/2011 11:57

I think increasing cultural sexualisation is very important because

a. it does play into rape culture
b. while young women dress and behave more and more like sex objects, not knowing any other way, society does not change its views of such women (to respect them professionally, for instance) - if it did, it would matter less. The trouble is we have traditional values applied to 21 century normally dressed young women - who by traditional values are dressed like dolly birds. The alternative is to be ignored as a frump (as normal fashionable office clothes become increasingly cleavagey and tight). So however they dress they have given "permission" to men to devalue and ignore them. The always tiny window of sexually unmarked office clothing choices has become vanishingly small for women.
c. It absorbs their time and energy and money for young women to be so "overproduced". The qualities they are honing are not providing them with personal resources to sustain them when they are older (as would if they were developing interests, skills, relationships, anything genuinely fun and rewarding instead). This will make it easier for them to feel hollow and have low self esteem when they are middle aged and less pretty; playing into the traditional P.A. self effacing but bitter invisible powerless middleaged woman problem (lying behind a million mn MIL threads)
d. also absorbs energy that could be turned outwards towards political or community concerns

AgeingGrace · 17/02/2011 12:09

To answer your very sound post more quickly than you deserve, vezzie: The way a 'sex object' looks is determined by fashion. Beauty is always a culturally defined quality. Sexuality is a major feature in human life; imo fashion emphasises it in different ways at different times. I think we just happen to be going through a phase of sexual enhancement - for women and men - that will change. In Tudor times, men wore codpieces and women wore corsets!

swallowedAfly · 17/02/2011 12:36

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vezzie · 17/02/2011 12:48

Yes there are different currents at different times, but just to say that is not to argue that they don?t mean anything. I couldn?t say what the Tudor fashions signified because I don?t know enough about the social history of the (very broadly defined) moment you are mentioning. (I would guess codpieces = puissance and virility and corsets = shapely and youthful but tightly, virginally controlled. but these are just guesses; and anyway I would not hold up Tudor social mores as an apologia for anything I want in mine or my daughter's lives)

I would argue that the difference between standard women's day dress of now as opposed to 20 years ago is a sexually demeaning response to women getting ?uppity? and a visual reminder to us all what they are for.

Unrulysun · 17/02/2011 12:52

I agree with SaF. I feel that anything other than perfection is unacceptable for women these days. Old?disgusting. More than a size 10? disgusting. Have had plastic surgery? Laughable and disgusting. Haven't had plastic surgery? Disgusting. Plainly dressed? I can't see you. Sexily dressed? Fucking asking for it. I could, sadly, go on all day.

SardineQueen · 17/02/2011 13:13

ageinggrace I would agree with you if it were the case that male and female images were used in similar numbers and similar ways to represent "sex" and "sexy", if men's and women's clothes were equally revealing and uncomfortable, that men and women were judged similarly on their looks, that the male form was fetishised as much as the female form in all media.

We aren't there though. I looked at a display of magazines in tescos the other day and every single one bar one (men's health) had a picture of a woman on it. All of the women's magazines, men's magazines, and interest magazines like computing had images of women on. An image of a woman or even a single part of a woman's body is shorthand for "sex" in a way that a mans is not. Older women are not present on our television screen in the same way that older men are.

While we have that situation it is all a problem, as it reinforces the idea that a woman's main and possibly only function is to be visually exciting for heterosexual men.

SardineQueen · 17/02/2011 13:19

Interestingly after having a good old ding dong about page 3 and teh anne summers live model, I went and watched a bit of louis spence's showbiz in bed. They had a bit where a man and a woman were painted to look like they melded into the wall and they came out and danced around to prince and then melded back in again.

After the page 3 thread and the anne summers thread where people were saying "why do you have a problem with breasts? do you want us all to go around in burkas?".

I don't have a "problem with breasts" though, I was very cheerful watching the painted couple in pants dancing around. Because the primary reason they were naked wasn't to arouse heterosexual men, because there was a man and a woman who were dancing in the same way and in teh same state of undress, because it was all in good fun Grin

I don't understand when people can't see the difference between someone naked, and someone naked for the sole purpose of eliciting a sexual response in heterosexual men.

SardineQueen · 17/02/2011 13:20

The prog was showbiz, it was me who was in bed, and not with louis spence Grin

AgeingGrace · 17/02/2011 19:31

Hmmm! I dislike the Sun's Page 3 because the near-naked model is presented as wank-meat in a newspaper (yes, OK, but it's still the best-seller). This means that a man is invited to think of a girl's body as a sex object while he's travelling to work, on his lunch break, whatever ... as part of an ordinary day, during which he interacts with young women. I can't believe his daily tits don't infect the way he thinks about those women.

I have less of a problem with men's magazines because their primary purpose is as a sex aid (Not getting into the whole porn thing here). Wrt to women's magazines & advertising - those are my areas of expertise and, perhaps sadly, women prefer to buy images of women. This is undoubtedly a reflection of ingrained cultural bias: the theory says we are constantly self-critical and endlessly in search of a 'better' woman to emulate. That should be changed imo, but it's a long job and I don't feel it can be changed by attacking it directly.

As for "sex sells" - that's true, but so do babies! They are the two most powerful triggers and, in as far as it can be researched, equally powerful. The completely inaccurate belief that nothing sells like a naked woman is wishful thinking emanating from the offices of 'Mad Men' (and that old).

Cultural sexification of women is nothing more than a symptom of male dominance. So is cultural de-sexification of women. In a healthy and equal society, everyone would celebrate and respect each other's sexuality and their chosen level of sexiness. It can be argued (quite strongly, imo) that current Western fashion is some way forward in this respect.

Last night at the Brits, men and women were sexed-up and painted for everyone's pleasure. During the high points of my career I needed to wear makeup, have my nails painted, etc. By the time it finished it was completely normal to see women at work with bare faces, wet hair, flat shoes, etc. It's small progress, all right. But it is progress.

I see movement towards that mutual respect & celebration. Much/most of the sleazier kind of girlsex presentation stems from outdated male ideas. I worry that some feminists get bogged down in the symptoms of the problem, rather than addressing the cause. And the cause is still imbalance of power.

I don't care if women all wear spangled pink bikinis and hair extensions, as long as they wear them by choice - and as long as they gain equal power, in terms of asset control and political authority. To say such attire would incite rape is an insult to both men and women. To insist it would prevent women from gaining authority is to accept the values of outdated males (and is an insult to Madonna!)

I rather suspect feminism betrays itself by bothering so much about fripperies.

AgeingGrace · 17/02/2011 19:33

sorry for rambledom above, I was writing it piecemeal

swallowedAfly · 17/02/2011 20:20

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