Feminism chat thread

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

Hello

Been saying for ages that it'd be nice to have an area for just saying hi, letting off some steam and sharing the little things that don't warrant a whole thread.

So, I'll start...

My brother made me :o:o:o last night when we were talking about some crap sexist song. And he said (in all honesty) - well this is just one of the millions of ways the patriarchy keeps itself going.

Also got the updated email from the Feminism in London conference this morning - can't wait.

Anyone else?

A headline from the Daily Telegraph:

"Davos 2011: Fifth of all delegates must be women - Political correctness has made it all the way to the Swiss alpine peaks, it seems."

That so-called "political correctness" applies only to the corporate sponsors and is aiming to increase female participation from 17 to 20% at the World Economic Forum in Davos.

How generous of the men!

ElephantsAndMiasmas wrote - "Anyone see Finn Mackay and others discussing sexist remarks"

I've just watched it on iPlayer. Thanks for the link.

What did you think of the discussion?

ElephantsandMiasmas,
I thought Finn Mackay and Kate Walsh put forward lots of good points in the "sexist remarks" debate.

I was taken aback by the woman journalist in the debate who described "sexist banter" as:

"what used to be accepted as something which was just casual and a bit of stuff that men are hard-wired to say".

Wow!

What about that man who kept going on about how nicely Kate was dressed and how dressing appropriately is so important? He was using that to apparently support his view that sexist comments should not be harshly punished.

That lawyer was a twat of massive proportions. And the reporter claiming that men were hard-wired to be catcalling arseholes basically, pah.

BUT it was a good debate, and it really gladdened my heart to see that Kate woman and Finn sitting side by side, looking as different as could be, but both in agreement with each other. Thought Kate was really good actually, who is she? The way she rejected the whole idea of talking about clothes etc was great. And I loved the fact that she pointed out that the secretaries he was addressing as "gorgeous" etc were probably not so much welcoming the comments, as feeling unable to reject them.

Scallopsgrea yes, the sexes don't seem that different when women drop the trappings of femininity.
Japan is an interesting case. Men and women here are pretty similar in build, but the female kimono is literally like BDSM. You are tied into it in three places so you can barely move your arms forward, and you're forced to shuffle your feet in these little baby pin steps. It's extremely restricting and that was obviously to make women appear feminine and weaker than they actually are: to reflect men to twice their size, as it were.
Then you get the male kimono, which has got massive shoulders pad things, stretching beyond the man's actual shoulders, so he looks stockier than he actually is.

I see it in Western dress as well. The obvious one in the west is hairstyles, whereas the Japanese male and female hairstyles were traditionally quite similar: long hair tied up in a similar way.

After that programme yesterday I had a reeeaaally interesting chat with my mother on that subject, Sakura. She was saying that she initially thought that Finn Mackay was a teenage boy, and that many people watching that programme would find that "challenging". I was talking about how being able to instantly identify what sex somebody is is a huge part of society, and really the reason for that is sexism. I mean, most of the time you don't need to know the content of someone's pants, you need to know what sex someone is in order to know how to treat them. Treat them like a woman, treat them like a man. Look androgynous and this system is under threat.

So going with what you're saying, it's women who must "mark" as non-male. Finn gets up and goes to work without actually doing anything different. It's the things she isn't doing: putting on makeup, styling her hair, working out what clothes will make her look 'feminine'. And the result is she supposedly looks "masculine".

So going with what you're saying, it's women who must "mark" as non-male.

Exactly!
You have to read Beauty and Misogyny, a lot of it is in there. WOmen bear the markers of their subordinate status, and (well not sure what I think of this) make-up is a sign of deference.

I remember Dworkin writing about chinese foot-binding and saying that for a thousand years womens were hobbled so that men could feel masculine..

womenz? I meant women

so then when you're in this frame of mind you begin to see how cosmetic surgery is nothing but mutilation. So many women simply cannot fit the feminine mould that our lovely patriarchy has made for us.

Yes, and think about extreme markings of feminity, which you might think would be heartily endorsed and seen to increase a person's value, if "femininity" were really regarded as valuable like masculinity is. But in fact loads of make-up, very large breasts or bums, extreme hourglass figures, showing cleavage, very long shiny bouncy hair, very high heels - they are all mocked and cause for mocking, they are markings of "stupidity" or low-value "frothiness". This shows what is really thought of these things, stupid and rivolous. So are we, in putting on make-up, marking ourselves as stupid and frivilous, as low-value? Are we putting our own yellow stars on our arms, in a way?

I hope you don't mind my joining this thread :)

I'm interested in this question of women's appearance. I sat next to a woman at a dinner a few months ago who was keen to undergo a sex change. She told me that by wearing make-up and having a male partner I was supporting the patriarchy (fair enough on the make-up I guess) but I kept thinking 'yes but you actually want to be one of them'.

I was a bit confused by it as I could see that she thought she was a really militant feminist and I thought that the sex change thing wasn't that at all (although I would hope she'd have had deeper reasons than the political for wanting it).

???

Git aaaaht of it.

Oh, alright, you can stay :o

That does sound strange. It is a question about whether wanting to be a man is consistent with radical feminism. Um, I tend to believe in this gender dysmorphia thing, and would think she had as much right to be a feminist as any man would.

She sounds like a cheeky cah to be chastising you for not being a political lesbian (i.e. not out of inclination) over the bread rolls, though

I understand the not wearing make up thing, but the not being with a man thing!? I don't get it!

You learn something new every day and today it's 'political lesbian' :)

I'm a gender dysmorphia believer myself but she was really presenting sex change as a political choice and as the ultimate feminist act. Which is confusing me all the more now
as politically (as opposed to personally) it would seem not to be.

I did wonder if her problem with my relative heterosexuality might be a rather ill conceived chat-up line. :)

Actually maybe this isn't an Interesting anecdote which illustrates something about gender politics but rather illustrative of the fact that it takes all kinds. Or illustrative of the fact that my mate Helen had a hen night (for this was the event in question) which some wouldn't recognise as such.

Oh and it wasn't that I think you can't be a man and be a feminist - it was more the implied rejection of womenkind as a political act iyswim?

And thanks for letting me stay Elephants :)

OIh yes I know you weren't saying that, I was just pondering that woman having sex change = to all intents and purposes, man. Man being feminist = fine.

Giving up being a woman in order to express your support for women's rights is a new one on me though. How odd!

How did she explain it?

wanting to be a man is not consistent with radical feminism at all. i would say it's the ultimate in deference to the patriarchy, and possibly an extention of a woman's self-loathing. Women really aren't regarded very highly once you scratch the surface, and wanting to be part of the dominant class can seem very attractive. It sounds to me that that woman believed women should mimic men or they are nothing.

Make up is a separate subject. Finn Mackay has rejected femininity but she does in no way try to emulate men.

Even gender dysmorphia is down to the patriarchal insistence that people of a particular sex must behave in a particular way. That is why I find trans feminism insulting to my sex: the hyper-femininity that those men try to emulate has nothing to do with being female; because they know if they dressed like Finn Mackay people would be having none of it. This, then, perpetuates the dichotomy which harms women: to "be" a woman you must wear the golden star. [not that I don't believe trans women don't suffer in this straightjacked that our society had placed upon us. I just think they should be joining feminists to work on breaking down the constructs, not joining the patriarchy in order to prop them up )

Well yes Sakura but most transsexuals dress fairly 'normally' albeit with some make-up, nails painted, low heels, probably a skirt as opposed to the stereotypical drag-queen look.

Very confused about this wrt feminism as I'm not sure you can opt in to being a woman arguably part of the experience is the experience of growing up with the oppression? I hate that but I think it may be true.

She didn't really have much of an explanation beyond -'you got make-up and I got a postgraduate qualification in gender studies' tbh Elephants. And if I'm honest I didn't really take it on because I felt that it wasn't the time or place and that I'd be set up as being anti-lesbian/anti-trans gender.

I'm not talking about the drag queen look, I'm talking, literally, about the low key "make-up, nails painted, low heels, probably a skirt" which are the markers of the subordinate sex, the golden star.

You can't opt-in to being a woman. IF you could, a lot of women would most certainly opt-out.

"I got a postgraduate qualification in gender studies"

THere was a thread a while back with lots of very interesting information about how academia has been co-opted by the patriarchy; how women's studies departments were so underfunded (women being poorer than men and unable to donate as much) and have been usurped by "gender studies"
Trans feminism (this insistence that men can opt-in to become women) is a patriarchal notion, supported by grey headed men who make the decisions pver which courses can be run. None of the second wave, radical feminists are taught in gender studies, which is strange, because these were the women who invented the concept of gender.

I will try to find the thread for you if you like.

WRT make-up wearing; nice clothes etc. I like wearing nice clothes. I like the way I look, having lost quite a lot of weight. I don't wear make up because I can't be bothered, and I don't have enough money to waste on it. And I don't spend any time dressing my hair either.

I do wear make-up and spend time on my hair if I'm going out for a special occassion. I'm interested in how much of this is me making my own choices about how I look; and how much is conditioning?

Does anyone have a clue what I'm talking about, because I'm feeling distinctly like I'm making no sense!?

Thanks Sakura - that would be interesting.

FB I know exactly what you mean but I think the way I look is definitely culturally conditioned. I wish I didn't equate looking good with make-up, heels (which are uncomfortable, change your posture, make it harder to move etc etc), being slim (rather than being fit), having my hair cut and coloured etc etc but I do :(

But how is it different to wanting to decorate your house nicely? I do know that our ideas of what makes someone attractive are skewed, but I feel like I look like I've made an effort for a special occassion if I put make up and jewellery on and do my hair nicely. Actually, that's crap - I do it 1/2 because I like the way I look when I dress up and 1/2 because I like it that other people (and I do stress that it is 'people' not 'men') might think I look good too.

Can you be vain and a feminist!? Men worry about what they look like too...

Have just watched that link and I have to say I love Kate Walsh, she was brilliant.

Who is Finn McKay, she was very good and cogent.

My god the rest of the world is thick isn't it!

And that lawyer guy - eeeew, what a creep, he was Robert Kilroy Silk's spiritual brother.

I know HerB, yuck. The guy blaming England's poor World Cup performance on distraction from female assistant refs, who should be wearing long skirts instead of shorts and stop distracting Our Boys, really took the cake though. But at least he was roundly laughed at. It's my new thing, anything I can think of I'm blaming it on women wearing shorts/short sleeves/being alive in the vicinity. It turns out that nothing is my fault that way, unless I'm the woman of course.

Finn Mackay is the woman who (with others) started the London Feminist Network and restarted the Reclaim the Night movement in the UK. Brilliant speaker.

Flamingo - I wear make-up/dresses/straighten my hair sometimes etc and don't think there's anything objectively wrong with doing any of those things. But the fact that I feel I have to do those things, whether it's to make me feel "good" (i.e. acceptable to others), or in order to gain the liking/respect of others, freaks me out to be honest.