Article in the Independent today about "honour killings" around the world

[ISNT]

Very good article, extremely upsetting though obviously, it's highlighted on teh front page of the Independent and a big special about it inside, apparently they are going to do a series. Good to see something like this on teh front of a daily paper.

here

and one woman's story here

Also anotehr charity for our list - the Jordanian Women's Union.

[Appletrees]

Not worth replying to but I will.

why have you ignored posts where I have spoken about talking to women friends in the country where I lived? why have you ignored posts where I've talked about the legal situation and stance of various female politicians? why have you ignored posts where I have explained the difficulties if addressing this? why are you still going on about a book? Why are you counting the minutes I spend on mn? why do you assume I have no local information, have not read local journalists, have not read essays, news magazine.es, internal opinion? why don't you go and read my responses and interaction with boss? why do you hate the idea of a feminist who cannot agree with you that the west is the root of all evil?

what is the point of addressing anything to you if you don't read it?

[PosieParker]

Is this the normal 'UK has terrible DV' so don't complain about honour killings shite?

Honour killings and DV happen in the other countries, apparently it's more shameful for your dd to let you down than to kill her, this is messed up beyond belief.....I do think the people that do and allow this are savages and sub human.

[Appletrees]

Happy: what planet am I on? What? Why is it blatant nonsense?

If you went round to people's houses and asked them fifty questions and one of them was this one, and they answered them all but didn't answer this one, you'd assume they had no opinion, didn't know what to say, didn't care or were afraid to answer. Lots of options there, including don't care, afraid to answer, no opinion. So it's a slightly different thing -- when a thread isn't getting a lot of response, generally, yes, it means people aren't interested. What planet are you on when you think it doesn't?

If it means something different in the feminist section to the rest of the world and every other forum in the whole world then I do beg pudding. But I just don't care about being agitato.

[Appletrees]

oh shit posie

"savages and subhuman"

thanks for that, really helpful, yeah thanks a lot

give it some bloody thought will you

the cultural pressures, the sliding, grinding poverty making marriage a family wide event, the religious sanctions, just try, try try to see what leads people down this road

God almighty

[PosieParker]

AT...I sometimes think people don't comment because they feel what they have to say is not informed enough, have to say it never stops me!!

[PosieParker]

People who kill their children are savages and sub human, this includes the parents of baby p....it doesn't have to be an honour killing. Although it being about 'honour' and not just because they are completely fucked up individuals on smack does make it worse. I am not pussy footing around people that kill their children or their apologists. There is no excuse, it is beyond every instinct a parent has....same as the people in China who keep a bucket of water when a woman is in labour, to drown any little girls that might arrive.

[PosieParker]

Culture and religion, I'll say it before and I'll say it again. I am delighted to have neither a culture or religion that expects such disgusting things of a human being.

[Beachcomber]

But Appletrees I didn't get a CAT asking me to give my opinions on honour killings that I decided to ignore because I don't give a shit.

We all make assumptions but should be careful about judging others on the basis of them IMO.

I saw a thread title, clicked, followed links and thought about the subject but didn't post - like numerous others.

I have posted quite a lot on a porn thread that has a lot of posts but the majority of them made by a handful of posters.

We are not assuming that nobody else cares about what happens in porn - I'm assuming lots of people are lurking with interest, lots of people find the subject very upsetting and don't know what to post (two posters actually came on the thread to say this very thing), lots of people have articulated their opinions on the subject before, etc.

Personally I find posting here often helps me to clarify my ideas or challenge them. None of us want or need to do this with honour killings because we are very clear where we stand.

[Appletrees]

Posie -- what? what? How can you hold such views? You don't know anything about it.

I read a tiny piece in the paper a year ago. Local broadsheet in a TW country.

A family living at the shittiest end of the shittiest stick in life, and believe me that was pretty shitty, had engaged in child sacrifice: had murdered their son in an insane attempt to appease some God and bring better fortune.

I am disgusted and revolted at comments like savage and subhuman. You have no idea about the insanity a person can be driven to by grief, desperation, ignorance, a vile and hollow life without chance, opportunity or favour of any kind.

What an ignorant comment to make. I condemn honour killings absolutely and without reservation and I'm revolted by what you've said.

And quite apart from the hyperbole -- how the hell do you think anyone is ever going to make progress in empowering women to fight such injustices if you approach it with an attitude like that?

[Appletrees]

Beach: I'm sorry to be so abrasive. I get very abrasive something.

[Beachcomber]

Thank you for the apology.

We are all angry about something - that is why we here. We need to direct our anger in the right direction though.

[PosieParker]

How can I call people that 'sacrifice' their own flesh and blood to save face savage? Primitive? Uncivilised? With great great ease. Some of the honour killings happen here, with access to free press and education, there really is no excuse. Brothers killing their sister because she refuses a forced marriage, with an electrical flex is nothing except savage. Fucking culture and religion as an excuse, it's backward.

[Appletrees]

I can honestly say, I don't know what to say to you.

Why put "sacrifice" in inverted commas? You seem to belittle the whole thing. How bad do you think people's lives have to be to conceive of these sorts of solutions?

It's not case of excusing it. Who is excusing it?

Would you like to explain your use of the word "subhuman"?

Is it worth trying to explain further, to give an understanding of what begets such crimes, or will nothing change your view?

[PosieParker]

are not is.

[Appletrees]

People like you are the reason for difficulty i in addressing this issue. If you imagine that one word that you write is of any help to the women suffering these crimes then you are so, so wrong.

Your words make condemnation of honour murder an ugly thing that people don't want to be associated with.

[Sakura]

"Your words make condemnation of honour murder an ugly thing that people don't want to be associated with."


I condemn it. I have repeated this to you so many times and I know you're going to ignore it again, but what the hell.
I don't understand why you insist on going to the wrong people about it. If you want to help you must ask the women's organizations in the countries you are interested in. YOu mentioned two causes to TheBossofMe, which she then asked you details about. I offered to help you contact women's organizations in the countries you were interested in.

Since then, you've gone onto another good cause: HOnour killings. THis is a new one. Running from one good cause to the next doesn't make sense. YOu are going to have to focus on the one or two issues that mean the most to you and work with the women themselves.

I really hope you are not campaigning for that book on behalf of the US. I cannot understand why you are running from one good cause to the next without any deep interest in any of them when anyone asks you specifically what you are doing about them.

[AnnieLobeseder]

Good grief, and then people wonder why so many of us are scared off the feminist threads.

Nice job, ladies, turning a thread about serious women's issues and horrors inflicted on them into a bunfight about who cares more about feminism.

FFS.

[Sakura]

I don'T think it was about that Annie.. I think everyone on here cares about feminism, that's why we're here. BUt women who identify as feminists are human as well, with human flaws. There are more bunfights on AIBU and breastfeeding threads than on here.

[AnnieLobeseder]

Well, it's not encouraging if you want more people to care about women's rights, to insult the whole of MN who aren't currently posting here, and then to get into a huge fight about semantics.

The reason so many of us stay away from the feminism topic is not because we don't care about feminist issues, it's because it's downright nasty on here.

BFing also gets nasty, and I know of friends who struggle with BFing staying off there because of the bunfights. But that doesn't make bunfights on that topic right, any more than it does on here. These are topics which should be about women understanding and supporting each other.

So I stand by my opinion.

[Appletrees]

Sakura it's not all about you. I was talking to posieparker.

[Appletrees]

Nor is it all about the book. I have raised it on ONE thread. Somebody else raised it on another.

Annie: I know. My comparison between this thread and the party bags thread was uncalled for. Other people are interested and doing links so I am stopping now on the subject of international women's rights on here.

[EdgarAllInPink]

unfortuntelt i fer the independent is going to end up encouraging more people to be anti-Islamic by articles like this, rather thn pro-woens rights, pro proper investigations of suspicious deaths in the UK (and abroad, so far as the UK can influence that), in favour of better facilities for womens rescue services, etc etc.

and also the OP doesn't pose question for us to debate, so much as request comment...hence fewer posts? Also, if i was feeling hormonal, i wouldn't want to read that shocking an article.

[ISNT]

Annie I can't control what other people post, there is one person who is upset about people not posting, would you rather none of us posted? You seem to be angry with everyone for the actions of one or two posters. Should I not have posted the OP? Is it surprising if emotions run high on a subject like this?

Edgar the article is very clear that this is not a specifically Muslim issue, that it happens in other communities as well eg Christian and Hindu and is a cultural problem rather than a religious one. Did you not get that from the article?

Looking at recent posts again I think that people would rather I had not posted this OP? Is that right?

FWIW I can understand and sympathise with the views of sakura, and of appletrees, and even posie.

[Appletrees]

No isn't please don't stop posting these links, there are so few. Last word from me but sorry if you feel I trashed it. Pls don't stop.