Article in the Independent today about "honour killings" around the world

[ISNT]

Very good article, extremely upsetting though obviously, it's highlighted on teh front page of the Independent and a big special about it inside, apparently they are going to do a series. Good to see something like this on teh front of a daily paper.

here

and one woman's story here

Also anotehr charity for our list - the Jordanian Women's Union.

Uncertainty I mean

Girls party bags..65 posts

Thousands of women murdered ..27

(spit)

Agree, apletrees. I didn't mean to say that each country should be left to address the issue itself. I do think each country has an obligation to act internationally insofar as it is able, as well as to address its own experience of the violence.

Don't these things break international law though? I mean if these things are happening and the government are turning a blind eye then isn't it something that the UN ought to have something to say about?

Is it even legal to stone people to death under international law?

appletrees I honestly think the reason that people don't respond to these threads is the reason i often don't. It's not about not caring, it's to do with it being so overwhelmingly awful, what is there to say? And what can be done is too big a question somehow. I think people register this stuff but don't feel they can engage as it's too big and too awful. I understand your frustration, but I believe that is the reason, I really do.

breastmilk I had exactly the same thought about gaza etc

Sorry getting my threads mixed up there.

Re the other thread - surely execution by stoning is illegal under international law

Re this thread - surely handing down a sentence of gang rape is illegal under international law, and cases where people have been let off for murder.

So shouldn't the UN be doing something about all this?

Theoretically I mean, shouldn't the UN be doing something. Practice is a separate question. But in theory, the UN?

Yes.. but did you see today's article? The international outcry over a woman shot dead in the office of a refuge, after agreeing to a meeting with her mother -- who ushered om the murder.

There was international outrage and even a resolution before the Pakistan senate -- nothing happened.

Sorry Isn't, I think it's because they aren't interested. I really do. I hate the attitude earlier up, which is "well we've got it bad too".. as if the horrid things that happen to us are the only horrid things that matter. IYSWIM.

BTW I think you post some great threads and jolly good stuff though I don't agree with some of what you say and on politics we might be some way apart. Not quite but still I have a check now on what you're on about!

"Utterly fucking horrific. Of course what is really needed is for reserves of oil/minerals to be discovered in some of these countries, then America and Britain might be happy to agree to invade them in order to stamp out this abuse of women."

SGB, I think you'll find that Saudi Arabia, the worst country in the world in its treatment of women, has massive reserves of oil.

As yourself why the US is best friends with that country?

".. as if the horrid things that happen to us are the only horrid things that matter. IYSWIM."

two women a week are murdered in the UK by their spouse. THere's probably one dying right now.

Why doesn'T the INdependant have a spread a bout that?
WHy is it the only reason I know about it because I'm a feminist who happened to read the Equality Illusion? The atrocities committed against women in the UK are not just ignored, they're covered up./

What I mean is...It's all well and good to "OMG, the SAVAGES! We must INVADE at once at teach them how to be civlized". BUt if you're ignoring the "honour killings" in your own country: and please lets not dress up the UK murders of women as being "better" or "not as bad", then you're skating on thin ice though WRT Western imperialism.

APples, we had a massive discussion on this issue on that other thread and I can't believe you're still purposely side-stepping the arguments that as US-led campagn is NOT a good idea. As I said earlier,contact the female MPs of the countries you're most worried by. Try to find out what the educated middle-class women in these countries are doing to address the problems. These aren't nations of savages, these are countries with problems, just like the UK (please don't tell me two women murdered a week by their spouse is less of a problem)

Most of your posts have a decidedly imperialistic, west is best, flavour that is unpalattable to me

I know about that statistic and I don't read the equality illusion

As elephants said it's not a competition. that is used we an excuse for not addressing the issue because the race-religion-culture implications are difficult.

I know what you think of me. You are very free with it. it's largely based on your own enthusiastic naivete.

Leave them to it then. Let them sort it out themselves if you feel this way.

And don't patronize me any more. I'm sick of it.

Just read these articles. By "them" I mean the women. Who are powerless. can they turn to the authorities? No. Can they turn to their representatives in local or national government? No. There are lone voices, some lawyers, some religious leaders, some brave and educated women, themselves threatened by police and authority figures tor "interfering" in their own communities.

Read today for example of the Christian communities where it happens which have closed themselves off from investigation. Of the Muslim leader who spoke out but was ignored because he was sponsored by a hated and corrupt government. Of the police who return women to their families.

Exposure is the biggest weapon so far. It's not much. But you throw it away because of your own fear of offending.

You would turn a blind eye because it's none of your business. You plainly read none of my posts talking about how in India campaigners may be seen to have won, with laws in place and vocal condemnation from female politicians. You plainly haven't read any of these articles - which report facts. The facts of life for many women. There is a civil code permitting these crimes inALL types of communities. If you think it doesn't need to be challenged and exposed, so be it. You cannot see the wood for the trees and are blinded by your one sided view of the world.

It's like the civil code of racism which tolerated crimes against ethnic minorities in the southern states of the US.

I can't remember who brought up Mocking Bird on some thread or other. This is the same. If women are the victims, find a way to brush it aside as the male view must prevail.

I have lived in such a community. I had my "awareness raised". Should I now forget about it? Is that what you think? Pretend I don't know about it any more?

You've got your bee in your bonnet. Well I've got mine. You want to stop people talking about it? You've got a lot in common with the perpetrators.

Your posts are verging perilously close to accusing me of making racist judgements. You are skating on very thin ice. I abhor discrimination of all kinds. I am disgusted at even having to write those words.

I have opened my heart about this on here and to read your shallow responses is dispiriting in the extreme.

Darcy: you asked what happens afTerward, is honour restored. Today's article talks of an honour killing removing the "taint" from the other girls in the family so they can be married.

No one ever talks about south America. that was a good post.

The central issue is - what happens when sexual apartheid meets cultural autonomy. We must be allowed to talk about it.

Appletrees no doubt this has been said to you before, but does it not occur to you that lots of people read these threads but don't post?

AFAIC it is not because I are not interested that I rarely post on the international threads - it is because I often can't think of anything useful to say. I posted on the stoning thread but all I could think of to post was that atrocities like these render me speechless.

I read the articles posted by MNers, read the thread, follow links, sign petitions, and often spend some time looking into the subject on my own.

Threads like these raise awareness but they don't generate a lot of debate or comments - these things are so obviously wrong.

Stop assuming we are all lightweight feminists who don't have a clue and don't care, it ain't sisterly and it is being read by a lot of irritated lurkers.

I don't assume that at all -though I certainly don't assume all are like you. I don't post in lots of feM threads because my interest isn't there. I agree with the feminist thesis of if but my interest is elsewhere. That"s the assumption I make - a lack of interest, not being lightweight.

Also fear. I think people are afraid to talk about it .

tbh I also think I put people off and have started to become a kiss of death for threads like this.

But this isn't a feminist issue, it's a human issue. I think MNetters may be afraidi to talk about because there are a few raw nerves involved... I'm sure many of us know women coerced into marriages and/or threatened by their families over relationships...

Where are the Christian communities where honour killings are taking place?

Appletrees, you have put me off. YOu've put me right off that book you kept talking about. People aren't the idiots you think they are. I'm not the "bitch" you called me just because I have a different view to you.

I have a different view to you. I believe that if you were that bothered about these things you'd be contacting the middle class educated women in the countries you were bothered about, not trying to whip up a storm among British women because that comes accross as cultural imperialism.

Of course you are allowed to talk about it. YOU've brought it up on lots of threads. What you can't seem to understand is that I personally have an issue with some of the ways you want to go about dealing with these problems. If you are involved in that capitalist-driven book I am against it, for a start.

Did you listen to TheBossofMe's reccomendations on the other thread? She is an aid-worker and she gave you lots of advice.

What book?

I didn't call you a bitch. Unbelievable childishness. grow up.

breast they are in Egypt.

I'm another one who lurks, reads the links, signs the petitions etc but doesn't post. I mean really, what the hell is there to say? I have no personal experience (and I guess most other people on mumsnet don't either) and who's going to come on a thread like this with the "it's not so bad" or "you only get what you deserve" type attitudes you get on some other threads (rape threads spring to mind)? Nobody in their right mind is going to defend this sort of stuff so we're hardly likely to enter into a big debate about it. As for what can you do, I think most people feel particularly helpless when faced with these issues. We can sign the petitions, give money to the charities but we all know it's only a drop in the ocean.

It's really quite insulting that you assume don't post equals don't care.

The book you kept going on about, the one that was linked to the blurb on the other thread, the one that I was against for its capitalist motivations...I've explained all this to you.

Appletrees Sat 28-Aug-10 02:08:40
Am really tired of your bitchiness. But lol at me allegedly calling you a quack.

Honestly, you are all over the place. Enjoy.

Sat 28-Aug-10 02:23:58

I am sure you are not a bitch, it was a horrible thing to say. I'm just so disappointed

Maybe I am a bitch, maybe not, but you definitely said it.

Having read your post in full it's clear you haven't read my posts at all, even on this thread, except to leap on potential point scoring opportunities. I'm not used to this line of exchange purely tor the sake of "winning" and I have no interest in it.

not interested Sakura

Re: don't post don't care: it's not an unnatural assumption. But I'm glad it's wrong, if it's wrong.

I don't want to win. I think you should walk the walk. YOu mock people who aren't doing enough, and yet you spend an awful lot of time on MN.
TheBossofMe gave you some advice about aid work on the other thread. I offered to help you contact women's organizations in the country you're interested in but you ignored that post.

"Re: don't post don't care: it's not an unnatural assumption. But I'm glad it's wrong, if it's wrong."

Come on, do you really think people don't care about honour killings?

If I were to go round my floor at work right now and ask people what they think of honour killing, I'm guessing that not one single person is going to say, "not sure" "don't really care" "all for that" are they? Might get a couple faces that there's anything to debate maybe. But otherwise universal condemnation.

If I ask them about gendered party bags I'm absolutely certain that the majority of answers will be "not sure" "don't really care" "all for that" type answers.

What planet are you on where you think don't post on mumsnet equals don't care? It's just such blatent nonsense.