Porn

[msrisotto]

Tentative!

Um, the way I see it is that a lot of porn (I have heard) is appallingly violent and degrading for women. This stuff, ideally wouldn't exist and should be banned (how, I don't know, but ideally).

However, the porn that I have seen or enjoyed is not. I wouldn't enjoy porn that is degrading.

So, why is all porn bad? (in some people's opinions?) If it isn't degrading and is equal in its approach, for the entertainment of others, then I don't see any harm.

Is the argument that you don't get the 'good' porn without the bad?

Don't flame me please, I really want this to be a considered conversation.

Also pointing out that damaged people re-enact their trauma is not,

thinking that "women have been so 'conditioned' by society or their childhood to a point where they are incapable of giving consent."

It is just pointing out facts.

Of course traumatised people are capable of giving consent. I just object to people making money from or wanking over that consent.

"You don't need to talk about sacredness though, being sexually penetrated for money, with no desire, having to ignore disgust and pain is harmful to a person."

Not necessarily. Being sexually penetrated without desire is not necessarily harmful, disgusting or painful. Those are entirely projections of your own feelings and vary from person to person. Some people may find going to war in Iraq to be all of those things. Some people may find writing political speeches to be those things. Some people may find working in a coal mine to be any of those things.

That's why you are 'compensated' for use of your resources and your inconvenience, whether it be physical strain, mental strain, compromise of your principles or artistic integrity or just time you could be spending with your children.

"I just object to people making money from or wanking over that consent."

Fair enough. So don't consume pornography that you don't feel comfortable with.

But impossible to actually police anyone else doing so in real terms without determining what is acceptable consent and what isn't. Which again is getting into the realm of judging women by their history, character and circumstances rather than jut accepting their word.

But it isn't just about 'sacredness' or pregnancy.

Huge numbers of people who have sex for money are psychologically damaged.

That is why these people self medicate with drugs and alcohol. That is why there are high rates of depression, self harm and suicide in these people. That is why there are high rates of PTSD within these populations.

Prostitutes and women in porn are routinely diagnosed with PTSD - that means they are shell shocked.

These women are not shell shocked because of some abstract notion of sacredness. They are shell shocked because dissociating from one's body in order to have unwanted, painful, degrading, humiliating, frightening, abusive sex with multiple partners damages a person.

It isn't rocket science FFS.

"being sexually penetrated for money, with no desire, having to ignore disgust and pain is harmful to a person."

I think Carmen makes a good point about infantilising women, wrapping them in cotton wool and protecting them from the evils of the world, which is the way that patriarchy sees women. What about the gay man who is penetrated for money, surely it is also harmful to him? But no one wants to protect him, as he is seen as an agent in control of his own actions. Women are seen as passive and in need of protection and help. Isn't this how patriarchy sees women?

"Carmen, if you take away the people reenacting trauma, and the people who have been coerced, forced or tricked into doing porn, you don't have a porn industry. There's nothing left for you to defend."

I never was defending the porn industry.

However earlier in the thread, you defined pornography as this: "Pornography equals sexually explicit material designed for masturbation"

Well, yes, I will defend the rights of anyone to make explicit material as long as it has been consented to.

I'm getting tired of defining consent though. The law does a pretty good job of it.

I'm sorry people consent for reasons you feel are unacceptable, but a woman's consent is a woman's consent if it is legally obtained imo. Judging her reasons for consent is judging her soundness of mind and agency over herself.

Quite, claig.

And Dittany's back to her own agenda. Have a nice evening/afternoon people. Stimulating discussion again :)

"That's why you are 'compensated' for use of your resources and your inconvenience, whether it be physical strain, mental strain, compromise of your principles or artistic integrity or just time you could be spending with your children."

That is one of the most callous posts I have ever read with regards to porn in a feminist discussion.

I think I'm done with this discussion now - as said before in the feminist section 'it is not my job to help you find your humanity'.

"What about the gay man who is penetrated for money, surely it is also harmful to him? But no one wants to protect him"

Actually, no.

One of the reasons I hold the position I do is from reading a book on the experiences of prostitutes, both male and female.

The social and political context is different for men as a group however that does not lessen the trauma to the individual.

"It is not my job to help you find your humanity'"

Oh come on. Suggesting I am callous and inhumane because my viewpoints differ from yours is a little petty.

Honestly. It is equally as 'callous' to suggest that catching an STD is worse than the men and women in the military get horrific injuries and die in their line of work.

Let's stop with the personal digs.

"It is equally as 'callous' to suggest that catching an STD is worse than the men and women in the military get horrific injuries and die in their line of work."

No doubt - except nobody has suggested such a thing.

it doesn't obscure anything. it points out that your view on the porn industry isn't necessarily accurate. it points out that there are an increasing amount of women entering the porn industry, from a business perspective, therefore the people creating/marketing/packaging porn and erotica aren't necessarily misogynistic men.

the content of some porn is questionable and some are downright offensive and ultimately illegal but that leaves a large portion that feature consenting adults taking part in entirely legal acts of sexual expression.

it's also worth mentioning that in porn there is a higher percentage of female directors/producers and stars than in the mainstream film industry.

in america there's movement towards the industry being unionised and many organisation to promote the well being and health of adult entertainment workers exist including the PAW foundation who address issues of pensions, addiction, HIV, STDs and employee/employer disputes.

And I'm not suggesting your posts are callous or lacking in humanity because your viewpoint is different to mine - it is because I find them (including the sore throat telemarketing one from earlier) offensive and lacking in empathy (despite your protests that you are not defending the porn industry and that you agree most of what happens within it is wrong).

You seem to be discussing this as an abstract hypothetical question.

I'm talking about real harm to real people.

Eh?

You only quoted part of my post.

I said: "Some people may find going to war in Iraq to be all of those things. Some people may find writing political speeches to be those things. Some people may find working in a coal mine to be any of those things.
That's why you are 'compensated' for use of your resources" etc. etc. etc."

I don't understand how this was callous. That's how society works. You give something in return for payment or 'compensation' - whether it be your ideas, risk to your body, your time or whatever.

Personally, I don't think that's how society SHOULD work. But that's the framework we have to work with. I don't think the plight of prostitutes is necessarily any better or worse than the plight of people in sweatshops or the armed services. It all sucks and should all be changed.

But that's a huge debate about Marxism and capitalism etc. etc.

Failing to see the callousness though. But that's possibly because I'm an inhuman monster.

for someone who has sooo much empathy, you seem to have none for anyone who dares to disagree with you.

Carmen, your inability to see beyond the idea of 'consent' is the problem here. There is a wider context that you refuse to see (despite Dittany and BC and others pointing it out many, many times) and that is the obvious problem with your position. We are not in the main talking about consent given by healthy, well balanced, together women with real employment choices. We are talking about 'consent' being given by women in mainly pretty desperate circumstances. It's like saying too bad if a very poor and desperate person consented to sell a kidney, and later suffered health problems, changed their minds and so on. No one forced them to consent to selling in the first place. Obv. this isn't the case for all women in porn, but all the evidencre suggests that it is the case for most and that should be enough for anyone with an ounce of humanity to condemn it.

It seems to me that the only way it could be 'ethical' would be if it was created for personal use only and NOT put on line. I don't want any of this crap coming into my inbox and I sure as hell don't want my children to be able to see it.

This thread has reminded me yet again why I hate 'choice feminsim'. It's not all about me and it's not all about you.

Ok, Carmen - I can't keep up with the way you keep changing your tack about porn and I'm finding you acceptance of suffering, abuse and sexual degradation and 'life's a bitch, suck it up if you've made poor choices' attitude a bit depressing.

Goodnight.

Fair enough, Beachcomber. Night! Thanks for the debate.

Jenny, I understand your argument but I don't agree with it.

You are still fundamentally defending judging a woman's ability to consent on her background and character. I disagree with this. A grown woman gets to say what happens to her own body, whatever her reasons.