Is the fact that men view women primarily as something to have sex with innate or learnt?

[LackingInspiration]

I visited my DH at his work this other day for the first time. The industry he works in is inherently misogynist. He hates it (the misogyny) and always challenges it.

There are women who work there, who play up to it - 'one of the lads' type of thing - but who behave very differently with DH if they're on their own with him. I guess they know he takes them seriously as people, rather than as a pair of tits on legs.

Anyway, when I went in, everyone was very polite and friendly. Yesterday DH texted me to tell me that one of the gay men there said he'd sleep with me even though he's gay, and his manager said he'd 'have a go' too!

While a small part of me found it very funny and a little flattering; I also felt really frustrated and irritated!

FFS! The first thing they think when they see a woman is 'is she fuckable'.

But...why isn't my DH like that? I've been talking to him about it this morning. He said he thinks it's innate that men do that...but that it can become subconsciously controlled if they're taught that it's inappropriate from a young age.

So what do you all think? Is it innate? Can they help it? Are they taught it? Or not taught to control it? Can we ever win as women if men all naturally look at men as sex objects before they see them as people? Is it the patriarchy that means they don't learn to control that behaviour?

Yes, that is what it referred to, SGM. I hadn't even considered that it would be read as 'all men' as I'd kind of assumed I'd made it clear in the OP.

Do some people actually only read the title of the thread and nothing else?

I am just saying it is going to prevelant in working class jobs where the boys have half naked girl calenders and working class womens jobs where they have half naked boy calenders etc. It is going to be less prevelant if you are a lawyer and going out to executive lunches than if you are a cleaner doing the floors at a hotel and are left to your own devices etc.

I'm a lawyer.

The female partner in our firm sends out a regular Friday email called something like "Hot Men On A Friday", which is themed and contains pictures of attractive, usually half-naked men. It's quite the institution, that email, and the subject of much discussion over drinks. It means that the men in my office are often walking past people's offices (and you can see every computer as you do so) to see photographs of men clad only in towels on their female colleague's screens.

The men send each other pornographic emails, jokes, and the like. It's rife.

And my New York lawyer friends said to say that larry is talking utter tripe. Staring at the walls, infuckingdeed. And frankly, if that's the worst dystopian vision you can summon up to frighten us all into respecting each other, I'll take it.

tortoiseonthehalfshell - Glad to see your a lawyer with some sense. Does having those screensavers of half naked men on make you see every man in your life as some object for you to toy with, with no feelings like a robot and having them there make you want to go out and do something extreme against men?

Probably not if you are anything like me. Have some sense people.

Well, since I don't live in a society where women are encouraged to treat men as sex objects, are brought up to believe that we rule the world, given a license to rape, and are invested with basically all the legal financial and social power, it's not really a relevant question. I was just taking issue with your (and larry's) claim that a law firm is less likely to be rife with this sort of stuff.

'where women are encouraged to treat men as sex objects, are brought up to believe that we rule the world, given a license to rape, and are invested with basically all the legal financial and social power'

Well coming from here I have never met any man that thinks it is acceptable to rape, the men just think they are shat upon just like the women as we are in crap jobs with no money and noone listens to their opinions, we have no power and no one is that bothered but maybe that is why we all see ourselves as equal here!!

There are pockets of society where men and women are equal, sunny, but you can't then say that society as a whole is...and we can't rest until it is IMO.

tortoise - I have no idea which country you are in but have just read your post with my mouth open in disbelief.

If a male partner of a UK law firm were sending out a regular email on Friday containing pictures of semi naked women I am absolutely sure it would be used as evidence against the firm in a discrimination case.

Do you really think it acceptable?

BeenBeta - I don't think she's saying she thinks it's acceptable; I think she's saying that it doesn't matter the class or the profession, but that this sort of 'people are primarily sex objects' thing goes on everywhere.

I'm in Australia.

I didn't say it was acceptable. I said it goes on, in direct response to Sunny's claim that a law firm would be more circumspect! And it is both sexes who are sending around inappropriate material, as I said: I only didn't give more information about the stuff that the men send around because I don't really see it. I just know it's there because I've been told about it by the female partner who compiles the emails.

And yes, if I were a man in this firm who felt harassed, I would absolutely bring up the emails in evidence.

I am absolutely lost for words! Your DH's collegues told him they would mind having a go at you (sexually)? And your DH repeated the comment toyou?

DH once said he never ever mentionnes me at work because he hears the comment collegues make about their owm wifes and eachothers wifes. I understand his position better now.

Well maybe Australia does not quite have the same level of anti discrimination law we ave in the UK. Not saying stuff like that does not happen in the UK but if it is happening firms lay themselves open to serious risk.

TBH, I just think the whole issue of sex has no place in the workplace.

I don't get why people are so shocked that my DH didn't keep something a secret from me!

Anyway, this whole thing has got fuck all to do with the fact my DH told me that someone said what they said, but that it was considered acceptable by those men to say it in the first place.

Getting a bit pissed off by people completely missing the point now!

1. it is not a fact. 'men' do not look at women as fuck-objects, some men do. Known on Mumsnet as twunts.

2)both men and women (generally speaking)have the same first encounter with feminity in the form of their mother. provider of comfort and food. The first learned behaviour towards women is to to treat them as sources of food and comfort (ie, not fuck-objects).
In both men and women.

3. men and women are told by their body/brain chemistry whether to fancy the opposite or the same sex. This may be in-born, but how either gender goes about it is learned behaviour - and will be based on their relationship with their parents.

the men known as 'twunts' learn to behave thus, either because their parents did not have a respectful relationship, or because they have learned the behaviour elsewhere (ie, in the case above, the workplace encourages that kind of thing - there is peer pressure to behave like a twunt).

Edgar - I think you hit the nail on the head.

I suspect 99% of the issue here is just about showing basic politeness, respect, kindness and consideration for other people and nothing more than that.

Somebody who does not do that is a 'twunt' and that applies to man or woman.

Its the basis of a civilised society.

"Anyway, this whole thing has got fuck all to do with the fact my DH told me that someone said what they said, but that it was considered acceptable by those men to say it in the first place."

If you read my post you will see that I was equally shocked by the fact they said something like that to your DH in the first place as I was about him telling you. Never said (nor did other with my opinion) that it was an ok thing for anyone to say. As an asside, if they had said you were ugly and they did not get why he married you, would he have told you? If he wouldn't because he knows that it would have hurt you he probably told you what he did because he thought it was somehow a compliment and it is that I am soked about.