Is the fact that men view women primarily as something to have sex with innate or learnt?

[LackingInspiration]

I visited my DH at his work this other day for the first time. The industry he works in is inherently misogynist. He hates it (the misogyny) and always challenges it.

There are women who work there, who play up to it - 'one of the lads' type of thing - but who behave very differently with DH if they're on their own with him. I guess they know he takes them seriously as people, rather than as a pair of tits on legs.

Anyway, when I went in, everyone was very polite and friendly. Yesterday DH texted me to tell me that one of the gay men there said he'd sleep with me even though he's gay, and his manager said he'd 'have a go' too!

While a small part of me found it very funny and a little flattering; I also felt really frustrated and irritated!

FFS! The first thing they think when they see a woman is 'is she fuckable'.

But...why isn't my DH like that? I've been talking to him about it this morning. He said he thinks it's innate that men do that...but that it can become subconsciously controlled if they're taught that it's inappropriate from a young age.

So what do you all think? Is it innate? Can they help it? Are they taught it? Or not taught to control it? Can we ever win as women if men all naturally look at men as sex objects before they see them as people? Is it the patriarchy that means they don't learn to control that behaviour?

'I think sunny has demonstrated very well that some women as well as some men think/talk in this way - and remember that some may talk in this way in order to fit in with a macho culture even if they would not normally talk like that.'

I dont do it to be part of a macho culture. I think its just how I feel and my friends know everything about me so its bound to come up. I know every last little bit of info of how my friends feel so it doesnt ever feel overshary. My jobs are girly jobs and I am the queen of pink and 'girly' and all my circle are 'girly'. I dont want to be 'macho' will leave that to the men. I am just me. Everyones different and I would normally talk like that.

I dont mind if you all think I am a twat though lol.

Is the fact that men view women primarily as something to have sex with innate or learnt?

Um, I don't know if it is a fact? I would think that men and women's sexual feelings/urges are innate but behaviour surrounding sex/talking about sex/attitudes etc is learnt.

LackingInspiration - that sounds very disrespectful of your DHs work collegues and I would think that these discussions would/should breach normal office etiquette.

Indeed any women present when the comments were made could claim sexual harrassment:

The Employment Equality (Sex Discrimination) Regulations 2005 amend the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 to provide that a person subjects a woman to harassment, including sexual harassment, if:

?(a) on the ground of her sex, he engages in unwanted conduct that has the purpose or effect ?

(i) of violating her dignity, or

(ii) of creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for her,

(b) he engages in any form of unwanted verbal, non-verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature that has the purpose or effect?

(i) of violating her dignity, or

(ii) of creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for her, or

(c) on the ground of her rejection of or submission to unwanted conduct of a kind mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b), he treats her less favourably than he would treat her had she not rejected, or submitted to, the conduct.? I don't think telling someone that basically you'd like to "do" their wife is the same or acceptable.

(apologies if these regulations have been superceded)

sunny2010 - I do not recognise the world you live in. Be careful about discussing sex at work for the reasons given above.

I'd like to make a distinction between admitting that you find someone sexually attractive "fancy them" (when they or their partners are not present) v making lewd/crude comments in their presence or to their partners.

I think it is appropriate that at work someone will say "mmm so and so he's nice isn't he!"

sunny2010

"My jobs are girly jobs and I am the queen of pink and 'girly' and all my circle are 'girly'" I also noted on another thread that you said you did not think of yourself as a feminist.

Can you explain why you mean by girly? Do you agree with the pinkstinks campaign?

Sorry - meant to add - what brings you to this topic - I was wondering why you aren't put off like so many of those posting on the AIBU thread are?

We know that the thread title is going to mean we get a post like this in a minute:

"This is disgusting! Exactly teh sort of thing being posted on this section and it should be illegal! Just turns everyone right off feminism when you do something like this and reveal what a man-hating bunch of loons you all are! And you've all got beards! PAH"

Then we will have to calmly say... have you read the thread? Everyone has already said that the title is stupid...

I wasn't saying you do it to fit in sunny, but some people will actually think this way and others will just pretend to.

AIBU thread?

I think it has to be learned behaviour, i have spent a LOT of time in male environments where this has not been the culture.

I studied physics at uni. 50 blokes and 5 girls. i can assure you that the guys had much more nerdy interesting things to talk about than what girls they would shag.

I did a lot of martial arts for ten years, again around 90% male environment, there were relationships both long and short between men and women and some random hooking up but there was no general misogeny - in fact a lot of respect for the women as we were almost always the smaller/lighter in a fight.

I now do a lot of mountain biking, that does involve some men calling others 'girls' for not being as good which does bother me as i am better than a lot of them and i am a girl. BUT despite a bit of sexism there still isn't the behaviour in the OP.

I can't imagine any men i know saying 'i'd give her one' and if they did then the others would reply with 'she wouldn't have you'...

I don't agree with the premise of the thread either.

I also think that 'viewing woman primarily as sex objects' and indulging in misogynistic banter with other colleague to 'fit in' or whatever are two different things.

I don't agree that all men view women in this way either.

There is certainly a type of man who does but they are not representative of all men.

Neither do I agree it's a class issue.

As another poster memorably said - it's a twat issue!

'sunny2010

"My jobs are girly jobs and I am the queen of pink and 'girly' and all my circle are 'girly'" I also noted on another thread that you said you did not think of yourself as a feminist.

Can you explain why you mean by girly? Do you agree with the pinkstinks campaign?'

I dont think pink stinks personally. I like pink nothing wrong with that. All I am mean by girly is I am not trying to be 'macho' or do this cause men do it. this is just how women I know always talk to each other in my RL.

'Sorry - meant to add - what brings you to this topic - I was wondering why you aren't put off like so many of those posting on the AIBU thread are?'

I stumbled across by accident but it doesnt mean I have to leave because I dont agree with everything does it?

No-ones telling you leave sunny - you are entitled to your pov.

Havent read the pink stinks thing. I dont associate with people that want to be rich, famous or married to someone like that. All the young people I know take part in charity work, care about other and put each others first. My husband does youth work volunteering and all of those young people are the same helping out in the community, helping others etc. My role model is my mother and I look to my family and local community to help me and shape me rather than rely on the media. I am very family, communited orientated.

I dont overly care for my appearance and have never had a st tropexz tan, shaved my legs or any of that type of thing. There is no need to here everyone just wears trackies and trainers in the week mainly here. Its nice looking nice but a bit impractical on a day to day basis! I still embrace being a woman though and have never felt that I am not as valuable or important for being female. I dont see men as oppressors of me either.

Sory that was meant to say now having read the pinkstinks thing.

Also with regards to the pinkstinks thing. I bought my daughter a pink toy iron yesterday because she loves it and chose it herself. I never really iron but my husband adores ironing. When I say adore seriously he is obsessed!!

Just because I got her a pink iron doesnt mean she is going to grow up to be stupid and only care about cleaning the house. She just likes playing with it. I had things like a pink toy kitchen when I was younger but it was after I was married that my husband had to teach me how to fry an egg and make a meal with jar sauce. I dont think these things make as much of an influence on kids as they make out. If your mum is a confident, self assured person then you will be usually.

Men and women are sexual animals, at a base level no different from chimpanzees. We have placed many layers of education and culture over that but the urge (whether or not it is acted upon) to attract desirable partners will always be there.

The "fuckable" thing is an ugly modern expression but it basically means "is she attractive". I am quite surprised about how many women use it as well.

What I am less sure I get is why so many people feel that thinking on a base level excludes thinking on any other level. Human beings (of both sexes) are complex creatures able to take someone seriously simultaneously to being attracted to them.

sunny2010

"I stumbled across by accident but it doesnt mean I have to leave because I dont agree with everything does it?"

No of course you don't have to leave! I find your views to be very very different to mine eg "Loads of my mates have said they would shag my husband, would fuck him etc." - personally I think that this is an illustration of the "pornification/sexualisation of culture" and it makes me sad - I think that this culture is causing equality for women to slip backwards. If you're interested read The Equality Illusion - if not please inore me.

The reason I brought up the pink stinks campaign is not because I think there is anything wrong with pink per se but just that some of the messages on there explain what I think about how we've got to where we are today wrt to polarisation of the sexes.

Sorry I am going off a bit at a tangent here.

WRT to OP which was concerned with sex talk at work - does anyone agree with me that any of the females present when the conversation was being had could have a valid calim for sexual discrimination?

Tabuloeh - WIth teh sexualisation thing I dont see it as something just men like. I like watching videos of men masturbate or couples have sex. I like getting men to make webcam videos of them masturbating and send them to me to watch. I have been to male strip nights etc. I personally get really turned on by it as I think its natural to get turned on by the opposite sex. I have talked about this in depth on the other thread. I dont see porn, men stripping for me any different to me playing with my sex toys or going on literotica.com. I enjoy all of it and it has nothing to do with the equality of women or men, its just my biological turn ons. You only think porn etc is oppressive if you think only one sex gets something out of it.

I dont expect the men I watch doing it to be perfect and neither does my husband expect women to be. I dont ever feel pressure to be perfect I know people love me for who I am and if they are attracted to me, bonus. I dont wear make up on a daily basis and wear trainers etc.

I dont think there are polarisation of the sexes at all but I come from a place where every woman doesnt really dress up. I have never felt unconfident or forced to dress in a certain way. I do dress up on the weekends sometimes but no one is making me etc. I dont know any men in my life personally that dont share housework, do childcare etc.

Tabouleh,

In law they definitely would have had a claim, and probably won it. Employment law is incredibly intolerant of any transgressions and getting more so.

You have to be careful what you wish for, though. I believe that in some N.Y law firms, men deliberately stare at the nearest wall when passing a female in the corridor, in case of being accused of "inappropriate" looking and non-verbal harrassment. Do people really want that over here?

God men can be twats can't they.

sunny do you think there is anything for feminists to do? or do you think it's been done and no complaints?

Isn't,

Isn't "twat" a rather sexist, demeaning term for the female genitalia? Surprised to see you using it! :)

OK then

God men can be cocks can't they.

Or would arseholes be better, as both men and women have them...

childish wankers, maybe?

Isn't,

Just surprised you actually used such an ugly word for women.

Yeah, we can definitely be cocks, aresholes and, indeed, childish wankers. But not all women are wonderful either, it may amaze you to know.

Why not just treat a person as a person, regardless of sex, and not prejudge?

If someone posts something which has an example of men being cocks, arses or twats, then I feel well within my rights to comment that they are being cocks, arses or twats.

If someone posts something where women are being wankers then naturally I may feel driven to comment that the women are being wankers.

In this particular example, men were being twats, and so I said that men were being twats.

Not rocket science TBH.

I haven't done a "swearing and feminism" thread yet, it may be that Dittany can set me straight and I will need to heavily edit the range of stronger langauge that I use.

For the meatime though, I feel perfectly happy to say that some men who are be
/having like twats, are behaving like twats.