Is the fact that men view women primarily as something to have sex with innate or learnt?

[LackingInspiration]

I visited my DH at his work this other day for the first time. The industry he works in is inherently misogynist. He hates it (the misogyny) and always challenges it.

There are women who work there, who play up to it - 'one of the lads' type of thing - but who behave very differently with DH if they're on their own with him. I guess they know he takes them seriously as people, rather than as a pair of tits on legs.

Anyway, when I went in, everyone was very polite and friendly. Yesterday DH texted me to tell me that one of the gay men there said he'd sleep with me even though he's gay, and his manager said he'd 'have a go' too!

While a small part of me found it very funny and a little flattering; I also felt really frustrated and irritated!

FFS! The first thing they think when they see a woman is 'is she fuckable'.

But...why isn't my DH like that? I've been talking to him about it this morning. He said he thinks it's innate that men do that...but that it can become subconsciously controlled if they're taught that it's inappropriate from a young age.

So what do you all think? Is it innate? Can they help it? Are they taught it? Or not taught to control it? Can we ever win as women if men all naturally look at men as sex objects before they see them as people? Is it the patriarchy that means they don't learn to control that behaviour?

You like saying men are twats larry got offended. I like saying fuckable some people got offended. Its the same issue really! Just watch who you say it in front of!

Thats what I mean different things offend different people. My friends wouldnt be upset if you said men are twats some men at work might be! I think the lesson here is dont say it at work in case someone takes it the wrong way but it doesnt mean you can say these things.

ISNT - I assume you were referring to these men:

"men deliberately stare at the nearest wall when passing a female in the corridor, in case of being accused of "inappropriate" looking and non-verbal harrassment."

Sexual harrassment is SO FAR from being normal office interaction with women.

Personally I would feel pretty targeted for being female if all the men in my office were doing this "staring at the wall thing".

I am surprised (or am I) that a discussion about sexual harrassment turns into a warning to a "be careful what you wish for".

Oops can't complain about harrassment ladies - what about the poor menz. .

Are you playing bingo with us larry?

Many posters here would not let your comment go. I expect that many of the lurkers we have here will have bee at your comment - an hopefully ISNT and I have verbalised the feeling.

I didn't say all men are twats! I was responding to the example given where men were being twats, by saying they were being twats!

sunny I get what you are saying about different ways of talking with different people - I have had jobs where the conversation has been rather crude. But I think as soon as it's not general, and is about a specific person, and a person who you work with, and more specifically said to them or people who are close to them, then a line has been crossed. Also where it is done in order to make someone feel uncomfortable, or despite of the fact that they are obviously uncomfortable. This sort of thing is very hard to define. There is a school of thought which says that if there is any possibility that someone might be offended, then don't say it. Which is a pretty good rule of thumb.

Yes tabouleh, those men.

The ones who are so outraged at not being allowed to lech at women that they have to make a massive passive aggressive point about it. As if men really have trouble telling the difference between looking at someone and leering at them Not a very compmentary view of men, that, is it.

I love this really, it always comes up.

I don't like being leered at = OH MY GOD you are saying men aren;t allowed to look at women!

I don't like strangers chatting me up and not taking no for an answer = OH MY GOD you're saying that men aren't allowed to talk to women!

I don't like it when men openly "evaluate" my body with that slow up and down thing = OH MY GOD you are saying that people aren't allowed to notice whether other people are attractive or not!!! You obviosuly have a BEARD and are JEALOUS!!!!

It is quite good, I like it. This deliberate misunderstanding followed by OUTRAGE thing, we seem to get it a lot here

Isnt,

Your last post is NOT what you said in your prior post. No-one can disagree with anything you say in your last post.

Your prior post, however, said "men can be such twats". That clearly implies that men are in some ways stupider and worse behaved than women. It is completely different to saying "those men were such twats". If I said "women can be such airheads", for example, it is literally true in that women certainly CAN be airheads, as can men. However, the entire implication is that women are airheads and men are not.

I think you know this and are being disingenuous.

Following on bit from what larrygryls said. Yes there is a baseline unconcious sexual attraction that heterosexual men feel for women. Nothing wrong with that.

However, unfortunately, among any group of men there will be a definite minority who simply define and categorise all woman as either 'attractive' or 'unattractive' and cannot see any women other than in that one dimensional way. Typically they will exhibit sexist behaviour and make offensive comments along the lines discussed above both in the company of women and when alone with men.

IME the vast vast majority of men though even in private in a group of other dont see women in that one dimensional way or talk that way - even if they are sexually attracted to them.

Is this innate or learned?

Sexual attraction is innate not learned. How you choose to express that is learned both in an informal 'how you were brought up' way and in a formal way where men learn from the media etc 'I'd better not say/do that because its sexist' way.

What I can also say with certainty is that it is not a class thing. I have known men in the highest level of management to the lowest in the post room and it cuts right across the spectrum. It has noting to do with intelligence either. Having known Professors all the way to people with no formal qualifcuations it cuts across that spectrum too.

" larrygrylls Sun 29-Aug-10 13:21:47

Tabouleh,

In law they definitely would have had a claim, and probably won it. Employment law is incredibly intolerant of any transgressions and getting more so.

You have to be careful what you wish for, though. I believe that in some N.Y law firms, men deliberately stare at the nearest wall when passing a female in the corridor, in case of being accused of "inappropriate" looking and non-verbal harrassment. Do people really want that over here?
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ISNT Sun 29-Aug-10 13:39:49

God men can be twats can't they."

As a direct response to your post where you described this clearly twattish behaviour, I think my comment about the capability of men to be twats was quite clear.

Apologies if you thought it was a random general thought that I decided to throw out there for no apparent reason, rather than the more obvious idea that it was a direct response to your post, immediately preceding it.

larry It was obvious to me what ISNT meant!

Can you tell me what you think about:

"You have to be careful what you wish for, though. I believe that in some N.Y law firms, men deliberately stare at the nearest wall when passing a female in the corridor, in case of being accused of "inappropriate" looking and non-verbal harrassment. Do people really want that over here?"

Do you really think that we as women need to be "careful" in order to avoid this scenario? If you wife told you she was experiencing sexual harrassment at work would that be the first thing that sprang to mind?

Isnt and Tabouleh

You give me a good definition of "being leered at"? It is highly subjective. What to one person is leering is to another person appreciation. It also depends who is doing the leching. The 50 year old with a paunch is a lech, the 32 year old with a gym fit body is just a nice friendly guy, despite the fact that their actual actions are identical.

There are obvious examples of harrassment at work, and they are pretty nasty. It is just a form of bullying. It is generally still man on woman, but can go the other way occasionally. However, there are more nebulous examples. For instance, "you look good today" can be thought by one woman to be a nice compliment and another as objectivisation and harrassment.

Employment law is the only area where you are effectively guilty until proved innocent as it states that, unless someone can show otherwise, someone has been harrassed if they feel that they have been. It is a highly fraught area for both sexes. It is also a way for women (and occasionally men if they can use racism) to engineer a payoff from an employer they are fed up with.

In my career I have seen both and had to deal with them. I have had to warn real harrassers but also defend the company I used to work for from highly dubious claims of harrassment (normally received from a lawyer after the person has left, giving a completely different reason).

I am not saying pity us men, but neither do I feel that the patriarchy that some of you like to feel victimised by, really exists any more.

It's a mixture really sexual attraction would be innate people will look at those they are attracted to. But i really just think it's rude to then tell someone that you would bang their partner. But this is also dependent on the type of friendships they have. There are many who make these kind of jokes all the time and their friends have no problems with it, so if the people in question don't mind is there anything wrong with saying those things i guess in those situations no.

So what do you all think? Is it innate? Can they help it? Are they taught it? Or not taught to control it? Can we ever win as women if men all naturally look at men as sex objects before they see them as people? Is it the patriarchy that means they don't learn to control that behaviour?

Being attracted to someone does not mean they are a sex object, and attraction is not something you can switch on/off just like that. The only thing you can ask for is boundaries so a person may think it but they don't then come over and express it if your a person who would not appreciate such comments.

Tabouleh,

When I said "be careful what you wish for", I meant that I feel most people believe that people should be allowed to behave naturally at work. Occasionally people will be crass, sexist and rude. It is also still the case that a lot of people meet their husbands and wives in the workplace. It would be hard for that to happen without, at some point, them being chatted up and flirting with one another.

Of course there have to be laws to protect people from bullying and harrassment. However, it is where you draw various lines that can be a legitimate subject for debate.

Tabouleh,

"Do you really think that we as women need to be "careful" in order to avoid this scenario? If you wife told you she was experiencing sexual harrassment at work would that be the first thing that sprang to mind"?

I don't quite get the relevance of that. If my wife said that someone was harrassing her by looking her up and down, I would tell her to have a quiet word with the individual first, and, if it persisted, complain higher up.

"You give me a good definition of "being leered at"? It is highly subjective. What to one person is leering is to another person appreciation"

It was produced by a Welsh Agency.

In my opinion if a woman is being sexually harrassed at work then my concern is for that woman not for men who might fear that they need to look at the walls when a woman goes past.

TBH I am sure that larry and beenbeta do not where the office banter line is and don't cross it.

I worry about younger men who are growing up with an easy access to hardcore porn/objectifying mags on open display etc.

I guess that it is beholden on workplaces to show something like the video I link to above and to really discuss using examples what is appropriate and what isn't.

Also a v. short clip from BBC website - shows an office situation.

Tabouleh,

I watched the video. It is about very rude and unpleasant lecherous men, not even in the workplace.

I have been to countless sexism, racism and diversification workshops with videos and, even, real actors.

Then, you return to the real world and find that people are not perfect and most manage to rub along. A nice guy one day may say something completely inappropriate the next, under stress. Also, people form really good friendships at work, which means they do banter a lot and sometimes, it does get out of hand. The best resolution is when the offended party tells the offending party that they are not happy and the offending party apologises.

You comments about my personal knowledge of boundaries is plain offensive.

Thanks for posting that link tabouleh.

I've had similar experiences myself.

I think tabouleh was trying to illustrate the difference between an appreciative glance/comment and sexual harrassment.

Pointing out how it makes women feel - and that it can quickly become threatening and unpleasant.

It can be universally applied to any situation where sexual harrassment occurs, including the workplace. And some of the men were in their workplace - builders.

I've also had that catcalling when walking past a group of men. It's really, really horrible.

"TBH I am sure that larry and beenbeta do not where the office banter line is and don't cross it."

there is a typo in that line

"TBH I am sure that larry and beenbeta do know where the office banter line is and don't cross it."

That's why the end of the sentence says "don't cross it".

I definitely agree that the first response is "The best resolution is when the offended party tells the offending party that they are not happy and the offending party apologises.". I expect that that would work with a lot of men - but probably not with the ones featured on that video.

yes second link shows the workplace

Janos,

I agree with you, that behaviour is obviously threatening and unpleasant. I have never really understood why people do it.

But isn't a large part of the threatening element that you don't know the men and you worry about what might happen next? Is it really the same when it is a colleague in the workplace that you do know well? Could you not then just deal with it via a strong verbal rebuttal?

I don't like it when anyone (though it is always men), comments on something I am doing/how they percieve me to be.

"Cheer up love, might never happen"

"that looks like a nice sandwich!"

"nice legs"

• I don't like any of it. I don't see the need.

• from strangers in the street I mean. At work everyone is very respectful to each other, and I do a blue collar job. There is banter but it's usually self-depricating.

I do see your point Larry.

I think it depends on the working relationship you have.

For a colleague on the same level as me - yes. It's a lot more difficult to deliver a rebuttal if the comments are coming from your boss. A whole different dymanic there.

Gosh! Just got back home to this long thread!

Sunny - "As long as you dont do it to anyone that is offended by it then what is the problem? You were offended by this tell your partner and he will tell the boys and I doubt they will say it about you again."

You are entirely missing the point. I wasn't actually offended by it. What has bothered me is what is behind this sort of behaviour - the idea that women (and men, clearly, according to you) are firstly to be considered potential sexual partners, and secondly to be considered all the other myriad things that go with being a human.

and "Also if all of you can admit you have never had a sexual fantasy/masturbated involving someone you work with, randomly know etc then arent you just as bad?"

Nope, I never have.

Bagged - "Perhaps men do vocalise it more, but if I see a fit guy and I'm walking with a girlfriend, we would probably pass comment. "

But passing comment on something or someone who is attractive, is completely different to saying that you'd shag them if you had the chance!

Valium - "I think men have this in them, but they can easily override it, unless they're working in an environment where it's rife and the norm."

But what I'm asking is, what happens to them men who do manage to override it despite being in an environment where it is normal?

And my DH told me in a 'can you believe this? Yet another example of how sexist everyone is here!' way.

Shiney - "Don't understand why your husband told you if it was going to be an issue for you to know."

It wasn't an issue for me to know! It's an issue that it was said at all! Really, I am just talking about this as an example of how difficult it will be for women to ever achieve real equality when our primary purpose, according to many (not all) men is sex...and what is the difference between the men who say 'wow! I'd fuck her' before they say anything else about her and the men for whom 'fuckability' doesn't even enter their minds.

Quavers - "So it's a "fact" that men see women primarily as something to have sex with is it?

Such sweeping generalisations. "

Ok, bad thread title - but if you read the rest of the thread properly, you'll understand what I mean.

tabouleh - "WRT to OP which was concerned with sex talk at work - does anyone agree with me that any of the females present when the conversation was being had could have a valid calim for sexual discrimination?"

Yes, I agree. But I bet they'd have never ever got a job in that industry again had they made an issue of it . It's a really awful industry in that respect. You'd have to be a pretty strong, confident woman to fight that I think, from my DH's description of it.

Larry - "You have to be careful what you wish for, though. I believe that in some N.Y law firms, men deliberately stare at the nearest wall when passing a female in the corridor, in case of being accused of "inappropriate" looking and non-verbal harrassment. Do people really want that over here?"

Also agree with this though! But I don't see how people can really not be able to differentiate between saying 'I'd sleep with your wife, how big are her nipples' and saying 'that new outfit really suits you'.