Is the fact that men view women primarily as something to have sex with innate or learnt?

[LackingInspiration]

I visited my DH at his work this other day for the first time. The industry he works in is inherently misogynist. He hates it (the misogyny) and always challenges it.

There are women who work there, who play up to it - 'one of the lads' type of thing - but who behave very differently with DH if they're on their own with him. I guess they know he takes them seriously as people, rather than as a pair of tits on legs.

Anyway, when I went in, everyone was very polite and friendly. Yesterday DH texted me to tell me that one of the gay men there said he'd sleep with me even though he's gay, and his manager said he'd 'have a go' too!

While a small part of me found it very funny and a little flattering; I also felt really frustrated and irritated!

FFS! The first thing they think when they see a woman is 'is she fuckable'.

But...why isn't my DH like that? I've been talking to him about it this morning. He said he thinks it's innate that men do that...but that it can become subconsciously controlled if they're taught that it's inappropriate from a young age.

So what do you all think? Is it innate? Can they help it? Are they taught it? Or not taught to control it? Can we ever win as women if men all naturally look at men as sex objects before they see them as people? Is it the patriarchy that means they don't learn to control that behaviour?

What point are you making?

I think it's innate to both men and women to view the opposite sex as love/sexual partners.

My DD, who is only 5.9, told me the other day that when she looks at boys she always asks herself, in her head, whether she is in love. And, very memorably, she fell head over heels with a waiter in a hotel we stayed in when she was 20 months old.

Appreciation of the opposite sex is different from seeing them as disposable items to fuck though.

'Appreciation of the opposite sex is different from seeing them as disposable items to fuck though'

No its not its just a think for some women to make out they are morally superior by saying Brad Pitt is Good Looking rather than you would like to have sex with him (same difference isnt it?). To me saying nice things about wanting to fuck people to people who dont mind and see it as a joke isnt bad.

What if I was saying blah blah is beautiful and my friend said no hes not he is fat, bald and ugly? That would be insulting and offensive to the man/women. I would be insulted if someone said that about me but not if they said nice things.

Also if all of you can admit you have never had a sexual fantasy/masturbated involving someone you work with, randomly know etc then arent you just as bad? Did you ask their permission? Well they might be offended etc

Maybe I'm just an old fart but I can't conceive of talking with my friends about men in term of whether I'd like to fuck them. Nor can I imgaine 'sharing' that so-and-so has a big dick or that I think that my mate's boyfriend is fit so I'd like to give him one.

I remember years ago reading a letter in an agony column from a young man who had beeen 'debagged' by the woemn in teh factory where we worked and who then laughed at his size.

Since when did equality mean taking the worst of male behavior and then aping it?

'I remember years ago reading a letter in an agony column from a young man who had beeen 'debagged' by the woemn in teh factory where we worked and who then laughed at his size.

Since when did equality mean taking the worst of male behavior and then aping it?'

As I said we never say horrible things only positive

So it's a "fact" that men see women primarily as something to have sex with is it?

Such sweeping generalisations.

And what's all this "winning as women" shite?

Yes, but when people start to look on others as objects to be used then eventually it becomes exploitative and taken to extremes, abusive.

It's dehumanising.

As for your point about fantasies etc, we can't control our thoughts, we have millions of them every day, most of them random. We can control how much importance we attach to them and whether to ignore them or pursue them, and whether to share them with others.

"Is the fact that men view women primarily as something to have sex with innate or learnt?"

It is not a "fact" that men as a group view women in such a way. Some men, sure. Men as a whole? No.

Interesting concept, 'winning as women'. I think we'll have won when nobody thinks that having a Minister for Women is a Good Thing.

Trying to change the way men think is impossible. It is possible to change what they do about their thoughts i.e. have a laugh with ther mates, or shut up and keep their thoughts private.

I think that one of the biggest problems with women acting in the same way that men do around seeing people as objects is that it lets men of the hook so that they don't see any need to be more respectful to women. Since when was equality about descending to the worstthings that men do?

'Yes, but when people start to look on others as objects to be used then eventually it becomes exploitative and taken to extremes, abusive.

It's dehumanising.

As for your point about fantasies etc, we can't control our thoughts, we have millions of them every day, most of them random. We can control how much importance we attach to them and whether to ignore them or pursue them, and whether to share them with others.'

Well I have been doing this with my friends for 11 years. I am never abusive or horrible to anyone. I am a live and let live kind of a person. Its not all I talk about and I dont place loads of mportance on it. I doubt these guys do either.

I am very resopectful to my husband and all men. I have never had a bad relationship with any man, never been victimised, abused, treated like an object. If a man has said they would fuck me I have said thanks or laughed. I know men arent objects they know that I am not an object. I know I will never be able to explain this so wont post again but if you do this it doesnt mean you think people are objects.

'I have lots of fantasies about men but fantasising and discussing who is and is not fuckable are not the same at all. One is reaction to pure physical attraction and I find he other completely dehumanising.'

Well we shall agree to disagree. There are many people out there that say if you look at anyone in lust you are sinful and have committed adultery but not all people agree. They arent right or wrong its up them.

As long as your circle doesnt mind then this isnt an issue. As I said if you do mind say and I expect they probably wont even bother looking at you ever again. I am sure if the OP got her partner to say that this would never be mentioned about her again.

Is it a 'fact' that 'men' think that? Some men are idiots, some aren't. Some women are idiots, some aren't. There can't be an answer to such a sweeping generalisation.

Well I have to disagree with teh title of the OP for a start as many men do not think like that. that women are primarily there for fucking, I mean.

Most people notice whether others are attractive, obviously, in passing. But there is then a question of what do you do with that.

In a world of lads mags and internet porn and katie price, I do think that some men are having their behaviour modified / bad behaviour reinforced.

So I do think there is definitely a problem with some men for whom the primary point when meeting a woman is whether he would fuck her or not, and then is quite open about it. Whetehr by saying something inappropriate, behaving in a certain way etc.

I do think that the "laddish" aspects of some male behaviour have been encouraged and normalised too much TBH. Most women at work do not want to be told what mark their male colleagues give them out of ten or whatever it might be.

It's innate but most people have frontal lobe control that prevent them from saying anything!! I'm sure if a man came to my house I would, on some level, be either attracted to him or not...I just wouldn't share it!!

The camaraderie or laddish stuff is encouraged when men are en masse, hence the popularity of lap dancing clubs, quite sad and pathetic if you ask me.

Haven't read the whole thread but I think you should first consider whether it is a fact that men "view women primarily as something to have sex with".

I don't think it is.

The entire discussion seems to be based on a false premise that the initial statement is a given and that all there is to debate is whether it is innate or learned. But, as other posters have pointed out, not all men do primarily view women in that way.

There is a problem with some men, but not all.

It is about respect for other people IMO, regardless of gender. Personally I would be horrified if DH came home from work and said 'oh so-and-so said he'd like to fuck you'. Why would they think that it was a flattering thing to say? I don't care whether some random bloke wants to shag me, I'm only interested in the fact that DH finds me attractive.

Also, what would it say about how they viewed DH? Highly disrespectful to him to be discussing how they'd like to shag his wife!

sunny - your life sounds very strange, do you and your friends really discuss how much you would like to sleep with each other's husbands? I find that very odd, and very disrespectful to each other.

I think sunny has demonstrated very well that some women as well as some men think/talk in this way - and remember that some may talk in this way in order to fit in with a macho culture even if they would not normally talk like that.

I agree with Hecate, it is down tot he individual and whether or not they are a twat.

"I agree with Hecate, it is down tot he individual and whether or not they are a twat."

I agree!!

Many men probably think like that the difference is they keep such thoughts to themselves. You can't control a person's thoughts but you can expect them to keep personal thoughts like that to themselves especially if they are talking to the person in question or the persons partner etc.