class/social standing and Feminism

[sparky159]

is there a place for working class people in Feminism?
ill answer my own post to as why im asking this.

semi, i think most white middle class feminists are quite keen about speaking on behalf of other demographics though.

lenin, you read much ken plummer?

mm, i think i probably meant were quite keen on speaking on behalf of other demographics... thinking more about a historical perspective maybe.

That's a tough one though

White middle class people are often lambasted for not giving consideration to other groups

But also lambasted for trying to?

Bit of a conundrum

sixpercent the inverse snobbery thing wasn't aimed at you at all! was trying to explain to chibi about the middle class = rubbish and working class = great message that she has seen.

Hmm
I remember being taught that political change was always aided and abetted by the middle classes - those people with the time and money to campaign on behalf of other people.

i'm a big fan of different archives and use them a lot. but it's not the voices that are widely heard, you have to go and look for them. so sort of back to my point about having the time and money to think about what is relevant in terms of your own life.

i don't want to speak for sparky, but she doesn't seem to be hearing any other voices, just the ones that don't chime with her situation. i could be totally wrong (often am)

lol isnt, i know.

i can't decide which is worse. or better.

god, i really hope you post on the feminism threads sparky. all i know about you is that you don't recognise yourself in the existing feminism discussion and have a child with sn. i think you've got loads to contribute.

there are a few others who are thinking a lot about feminism in terms of caring (for a child or relative with sn), so if you can't bring yourself to engage in anything else, please please get involved in that topic.

Well take something as simple as literacy.

This site is very literate. So the contributors are already in a certain demographic. Observe the scorn loaded on people who can't spell or use "txt speak".

For sure MN is a pretty solid demographic of some sort.

SkintBint
oh i sincerely hope i dont come across as this[dont seem to be hearing any other voices
just the ones that dont chime with my situation]
i believe in equality and i take a great interest in what others think/feel as i feel that we cant have true equality unless people understand each other.

i posted what i did and i want to elaborate on it but im very tired today.
ill come back tommorrow.

I think that class is obviously linked to feminism in that working class women are more subject to sexism as a consequence of not having a higher income to protect them. Feminism is also linked to class in the sense that overwhelmingly, poor adults are women.

In terms of feminism being middle class, I don't think it is - grass roots feminism is often organised by working class women. I think the idea that being educated makes you middle class is in itself sexist. Many university educated women will be on lower incomes than a male plumber, yet the women are denounced for being 'middle class.' We have to start associating income more with class in this country.

In terms of educated women excluding less educated women, I think that is rather spurious. There are lots of feminist discussions going on - it is horses for courses. On a discussion board there should be room for discussions at all different levels of knowledge in different areas.

I also hate this idea that we should consider working class people to be uneducated. How and why has this happened? In my Grandfather's generation, before free state education, working class people like him made damn sure they educated themselves, through reading and libraries, trade union groups, the Worker's Educational Association, evening classes, co-operative groups and so on.

So, I am not going to assume that simply because someone has not been to University they are unable to understand levels of argument that are no more complex than those my Grandfather read by Proudhon, Marx and Charles Dickens. If lack of education is holding working class women back from understanding political arguments put forward by feminists, then by the effort of all feminists, from all class backgrounds, we need to make sure women become more educated. It is education levels that need to change, not the complexity of radical political arguments.

I think this is a very interesting discussion.

One element that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned - perhaps people don't feel it's relevant or simply hasn't come up in the discussion is the way working class women in particular are exploited by men.

What I'm referring to is sexual exploitation. I think that it is an extension of male privilege - that these women due to their position in society are of less worth and therefore it's acceptable to use them for entertainment purposes.

I feel these women are often ignored/dismissed. I'm thinking in particular of a thread about stripping/lap dancing when a poster quoted sex workers who described their experience of being sexually assaulted while working as a lap dancer and her experience was 'written off' by some posters (the pro stripping is ace lot IIRC) as if it simply didn't matter.

Does that make sense?

I agree MillyR that working class does not equal uneducated. Far from it.

I agree that there are serious problems with aspiration, and I worry about the incredible levels of vulnerability among some groups.

But I think there is an issue with education being seen as a vehicle for social mobility, when I think that in a decent society, it would be reasonable for anybody from any background to choose to do a working class job, and be paid decently for doing such an essential task, and feel that they still have a right and a desire for education because it is incredibly important for every member of society to be educated about politics, science and the humanities.

It did not use to be the case that people read and participated in educational activities simply in order to get a 'middle class' job. It used to be that many people educated themselves as a political act.

Great post millyr.

I think that the whole class thing is pretty meaningless. When people on here are talking about being "working class" I have no idea what that even means. I know people IRL who describe themselves as working class, but I can never work out how they have worked that out IYSWIM.

I think that referring to specifics - as milly says income - and lack of it - and literacy - and like lenin says the "aspiration gap" and specific situations like being a carer, being a single parent and so on. These things actually mean something and so lead to a conversation where we all understand the frame of reference, the problem that we are discussing. This class business leaves me cold, it's too riven with stereotypes and ranomness to actually be meaningful.

Yes, I agree. Great posts MillyR and ISNT.

I would agree that lack of opportunies/aspiration are a huge source of concern.

Unfortunately I think class is still an issue. I speak from a British perspective here - I believe that we are riddled with class prejudice. Talk about 'chavs' for example. And of course we have ab aristocracy!

I understand though that many posters on here aren't British and therefore have a different perspective.