TheShriekingHarpy et al.....Whats In It For You?

[frikonastick]

Can I just say very quickly, this isn?t a call out for an argument, I am genuinely asking a question of some of the posters here in the feminist section, and I promise my tone is not aggressive or sarcastic.

Ok, so what I am asking is, given this is a subsection of mumsnet for feminist issues/discussion etc, and given you don?t ascribe to being feminists or identifying with them, why do you post in here? I really am asking whats in it for you? I really don?t understand why any woman would feel the need to come onto the feminist section to be anything other than supportive to the feminist principles. After all, feminism as a movement can only BENEFIT women. Why wouldn?t that be something you are for?

Thanks in advance if y?all take the time to respond.

Sakura - agree, of course he can't see a woman's view of the world because he doesn't have the experience of being a woman that changes that view. That's why I fundamentally believe that things won't change until we see more and more and more women in positions of power. I think the difference (I think, not absolutely sure!) between our POVs is that I don't think this is going to be achieved by women just talking to other women, it at some point requires dialogue with men and inclusion of men into that debate.

sakura - I wonder how much of that success is simply due to the relative "newness" of trans activism in comparison to radical feminism. Shiny and new often gets a voice and an audience where old and heard before doesn't, no matter how valid the old might be.

TSH, with regards to discrimination against men, men are usually better placed to help themselves than women are to help them.

To take Sakura's thread about men and parenting, if men want to partake in parenting to a greater extent as a group, there are all sorts of things they can do to help themselves. My DH would love to be a SAHD, but the odds are stacked up against him. Parental leave is heavily loaded in favour of the mother (the men who have a stranglehold on government could easily change that) and as a woman I am much more likely to be discriminated at work so I am reluctant to allow our family to rely on my income for fear of redundancy/reduced promotion prospects compared to DH (the men that hold senior management positions at my company have it in their power to change that). DH could apply for flexible working, but as a man he is much less likely to get it. The reason my DH misses out on the opportunity to be a SAHD is because other men won't support him, not because I won't.

thebossofme, I believe the only way women can get anywhere is by a 50% quota of women in parliament. But writing has always been an essential part of any revolution.

Greer was worried about trans women in 1998 when she wrote the whole woman but I don't think even she predicted they'd be able to dominate and redirect feminism the way they're trying to.

yes happysmiley, radical feminists have always said that patriarchy oppresses men as well as women. But it's more of a self-imposed oppression. If men-as-a-group (not individual men) really wanted change I think they could effect it TBH.

yes but agan TSH, saying 'women can be bad too' is irrelevant to feminism. two wrongs don't make a right and men have a disproportionate amount of power in society and always have. They're always attacking midwives with bullshit scare statistics, they dominate in politics, they run the media, which is why it's so misogynistic (I think sex and the city is a joke TBH- produced by men) etc etc

TSH - hate it too! Cannot see the appeal at all.

Sakura - the 50% thing has always bothered me. It assumes that all women in positions of power will always act in the best interests of women. Experience, sadly, has shown that this isn't true. Which means one of two things has to happen before the status of women really changes;

1. That we need way more than 50% of women, because, as you said, there are always some who are men-pleasing women.

Or

1. That we need some men to also act in the interest of women to outweigh the women who don't. Which requires some collaboration between women and men.

Out of interest, when you say men as a group as opposed to individual men, do you mean that because the men in the group are dominated by those who don;t act in the agenda of women, men as a group can't act in their interest?

BTW, really like your posts - one of the clearest voices on MN

TBOM, don't you think that if there were more women in power generally, the ones that are there wouldn't feel such a great need to pander to the men?

For an example, I was watching the paliamentary debate on anonymity for rape defendants and watched the way that the government back bench women MPs addressed their points. Clearly none felt able to say what they thought and made their comments in a round about way, shying away from direct critiscm. The men on the other hand were not afraid to directly say that the proposals should go further. I wonder if there were more women, the ones that are there would not feel so compelled to veil their thoughts.

hs - I'm not sure. I work in a very male dominated industry, and I see what happens to women in male-dom environments first hand - a gradual erosion of what it means to be a woman in a scramble to climb to the top (even if its done with the best intentions in mind), to the extent that when they arrive at the top, they act just like men.

Given that the erosion of male power happens gradually, I suspect that for every woman who reaches the top and uses that power for the betterment of other women, there's at least one who rises to the top and by the time they are there, think and act just like me. And that's not even counting the women who seem determined to hate other women from the outset. So it becomes self-perpetuating...

I'm probably just as guilty of it - lord knows I used to be a much more radical feminist in my younger years, whereas now approaching 40, I see things slightly differently. Lost sight of principles? Have a different agenda? Or just more realistic?

Sorry - line 5 should read "think and act just like men". Rather than "just like me". Changes the whole meaning of the sentence

I've seen it too, as I also work in a male dominated industry. However, I can see how things change on a very small scale when the balance tilts. Recently I have insisted that a particularly misogynist man was moved out of my bay and he has been replaced with a woman. Suddenly I am a lot more comfortable voicing my opinions whereas before I often kept quiet because I couldn't deal with the fight on a particular day. The men have also changed because they no longer need to pander to him (he was very loud and dominating). I think they also prefer the atmosphere now.

happy - I've never been uncomfortable voicing my opinions around men or women - has not always stood me in good stead as many on MN know

Also interesting to know whether (given some of the discussions about male vs female biology on other threads) this might in some way be linked to hormonal imbalances which mean I have extremely high levels of testosterone and low levels of oestrogen.

That's a whole other thread, I think!

Uncomfortables probably not the word, tired of the fight more like. I think everyone knew what I thought of him but on particular days I just didn't have the energy. On one occassion my boss even told me to leave it alone because I was upsetting him so there was also clear societal pressure to hold back.

TBOM,
I don't think we can argue against having 50% of women in power until we've achieved it. If it works out badly for women, well, then we'll know. I most definitely think that most women who have been in power before now only got there because they pandered to men (Hilary clinton, for example )

happy - that's awful What a dreadful boss. I know what you mean about the energy sapping nature of constant denigration - we all have days when we just can't battle that day.

Sakura - totally agree - it will be the most enormous milestone for women.

TBOM, the silly thing is my boss didn't think much of him either! He just got tired of the fight too, but most of the time he did stick up for me and he did arrange for him to be moved far away from me!