Dorothy Dunnett - why has it taken me so long?

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Now and again someone has recommended DD to me, and I've always given up on them, finding them too dense. But, for some reason, the Niccolo series has 'clicked' for me. I'm half-way through the 5th one.
I just can't believe how good they are, and amazing female characters are found in them.
I'm already worried about finishing the last one. Are the Lymond books as good?

My all time favourite author!

Personally I think the Lymond books are even better, and the standalone King Hereafter is very good too.

It often seems people prefer whichever series they read first.

That’s interesting- I also came to DD late, about 5 years ago, when I started the Lymond chronicles and enjoyed them so much that I have never got into Niccolo in case they’re a let down. The first two Lymond books have fantastically complex plots. You just have to go with the flow. King Hereafter, which I actually read before Lymond, is also excellent. Again very complicated but worth it.

I think that that's it - you have to go with the flow without always understanding.

She is indescribably brilliant but sometimes people just don’t get her and her style. One of my best friends tried and tried and gave up to my huge disappointment as I so wanted her to love them.

Once you are through the Niccolo books worth trying Lymond again. They do actually connect but it isn’t necessary to read both. I would take the Lymond books to a desert island, forsaking all other books in the world.

There is a DD Society with a very good magazine called Whispering Gallery should you be interested in that. Lots of same minded folk there.

There are also the Johnson Johnson books but they are very very dated. I haven’t read those for about 30 years. They were her relaxation when writing the other books.

I have never read any either. The Library hard backs seem boring and dull.
They do not have the "pick me not the others" appeal.
IMHO

That's exactly how I felt! You never know, it might click one day

They are the most wonderful books. i read Lymond before Niccolo and love them both, They are linked and reading the Lymond books first allowed you to see the link. You'll read Lymond then need to re read Niccolo to see the link. The finale book is an absolute stonker!

I know there are a couple of books, co-produced with DD, which act as companions to the series. Have you read them? I'm tempted to get them.

The companion books are very useful.

I adore Lymond! I almost have up on the first, because I didn't have a clue what was going on, but about a third in I got interested. Once I had read the whole series I went straight back and started again!

I couldn't get into Niccolo, and gave up half way through book 3.

Maybe I'm due for a reread.

Yes, it really is difficult to follow what’s going on in book 1. Or who everyone is. You just have to enjoy all the action. Once you get to book 3 the plots get more streamlined. And let’s face it Lymond is just so damn sexy.

And let’s face it Lymond is just so damn sexy

Richard too, in his own way. And Jerott has his moments when he's not feeling sorry for himself 😂

I'm flagging on the one where they're in Scotland. I'm finding it increasingly unbelievable how much Gelis hates Niccolo. Or thinks she hates him.

I thought the Niccolo books could do with tighter editing.

Try Lymond!

I will, but I have to get through the Niccolo books. Just as I think I've had enough (generally about Gelis being an idiot) along comes a great section that keeps me going - I've just reached the Icelandic section where the nails are removed from the boats.

The trouble with the Niccolo books is that Dunnett found Anselm Adorne and lots of fascinating stuff that went with him - and then wove Nicholas in amongst that world - so where Adorne went, N had to go. And that was at least two books further than anyone should go, frankly, however fascinating (and it is) the struggles across Europe and Africa at that time. Then she wanted to tie the two series together - and that becomes a bit strained. There's also an, I think, shockingly pathetic motive for the Big Bad in the Niccolo series.

There was also a real problem with her readership - who were constantly trying to outwit her by the last few Niccolo books. With big DD internet forums, an American fanzine called Marzipan & Kisses, and the UK DD Society with Whispering Gallery, the permutations of who was doing what to whom were endlessly picked apart and sometimes DD veered off when she thought the readership had got too close to her overall plan. Then the last book of the Niccolo series feels very rushed; partly because she had a lot of ends to tie, partly because there was a huge gathering in Edinburgh in 2000 with lectures, talks, trips and a special banquet at Stirling Castle and the pressure was immense to get the last book out in time, and partly because she either already feeling ill, or knew she was ill with her final illness. I was at the Edinburgh Gathering 2000 and she admitted in one of her talks that some stuff was changed through the N series, just because her readership were pressing hard on her heels and she wanted to outwit them. I think that meant for a lot of people it's a bit "Really???" when you find out the series baddie.

Her editors were also slightly in awe of her - rather in the way, perhaps, of JK Rowling's editors who just don't seem to, well, edit.

Without quite the same level of pressure placed on her with the Lymond books because it was before internet etc, etc, she was able to bring those to their perfect conclusion and if you like it (I'm not such a fan though it's an impressive work) King Hereafter is masterful.

@mimbleandlittlemy That’s really interesting. I’ve held off reading Niccolo because I so enjoyed Lymond and I’m not inclined to change my mind. I did very much enjoy King Hereafter because I think it’s an amazing portrayal of the medieval world, but I can see why people don’t like it- it does take considerable effort to get into it.

thank you for that mimbleandlittlemy, it's very interesting.
I'm on the penultimate one and, in most of the later ones there seem to be longeurs, but then the exciting/unexpected sections make up for it.

Ooh excellent! I listened to all of Lymond and then Niccolo on audiobook over the last year. I’ve just got King Hereafter saved up. I loved both, I think I find Niccolo more sympathetic than Lymond but they’re both excellent. I did get very confused though, especially as with audio it’s harder to flick back through the book, though it did stop me speed reading and I probably absorbed it better!

I would greatly recommend this forum:

HOUSE of NICCOLO
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=1959591&share_sfid=226&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Etapatalk%2Ecom%2Fgroups%2Foutlanderbookclub%2Fviewforum%2Ephp%3Ff%3D226&share_type=sf&link_source=app

V knowledgeable people and they do chapter summaries etc, reading through the books like a book club. They’re not done with Niccolo though. I found it great to pick up on things I’d missed and to share ideas, though I wasn’t very good at keeping up with it.

I read Lymond a very long time ago and then Niccolo quite a long time afterwards (and then had to go back and reread Lymond). I love them but I'm one of those people who can retain a lot of characters in their head. I think if you have to keep checking back to who people are it could get quite clunky.

I'd very happily do a Lymond re-read at some point if anyone wanted to read along. I've probably read them about 15 times but never say no to another read. I read the Niccolo books as they each came out so reread all of them each time a new one arrived but that means I've only read the final one once. I did try to start Niccolo Rising again last year but couldn't get past the lock at Sluys. Not in the right mood I think, whereas I'm always in the mood for Lymond (as it were), though I am a staunch Jerrott supporter.

Lomond books are brilliant. I was entranced by them..

Very happy to have found this thread! DD is my favourite author. I love Lymond more than Niccolo, though both are fab. I find the woo stuff a bit annoying - it’s more pronounced in the Niccolo books I think. I don’t think her baddies are as good as her flawed heroes - I agree the reveal in Gemini was weak, and the magical omniscience of Lymond’s nemesis throughout much of the books is a bit much - I prefer the earlier Lymond books for that reason.

if you want a brief précis odd everything that happens in Game of Kings, this is hilarious: https://archiveofourown.org/works/3146252

I love Lymond too. Another in the same vein but much less complicated is CJ Sansom's Shardlake series.