Dorothy Dunnett - why has it taken me so long?

[Sausagenbacon]

Now and again someone has recommended DD to me, and I've always given up on them, finding them too dense. But, for some reason, the Niccolo series has 'clicked' for me. I'm half-way through the 5th one.
I just can't believe how good they are, and amazing female characters are found in them.
I'm already worried about finishing the last one. Are the Lymond books as good?

Another Lymond fan sneaking out if the woodwork here, I first read the series at 15 and (apart from my Great Aunt who was a voracious reader and passed them on to me) I've never met anyone in real life who's read them.
I also tried the first Niccolo book as a teen but couldn't get into it at all! Last year (after a Lymond re-read ) I tried again, but I ground to a halt halfway through the fourth book. I'm determined to finish one day but it's never really gripped me.

Sorry but DD herself has stated it is Lye Mond so she wins.

How do you pronounce Geilis? And Buccleugh?

Buccleuch is Buck-loo. Don’t know about Gelis though.

And I spelled Gelis wrong. I was just looking up online which was the right pronounciation and Simon Hedges has soft G, hard G and gutteral G as all being used.

Here's a page with all three pronounciations. I thought that DD had said there was one and one only correct pronounciation.

@mimbleandlittlemy <retracts hard stare> When you said DD, I thought you meant your dear daughter a la Mumsnet! Oh well, I suppose I have to back down in the face of authorial authority....

There's actually a place in Scotland called Lymond pronounced Lye-mond so I think it's authorial authority and a whole lot of villagers, possibly armed with pitchforks who might not be quelled by the CurlewKate hard stare.

I've always gone with Gelis as Je-lis, rather like a posh Jealous, ie going with Simon Hedges' softer version - but should it be Hay-lis? Simon used to write hilarious sketches for Dunnett Gatherings and runs the Society so knows a lot. Then there's Marthe, which is pronounced Mart. And the Greek with the Wooden Leg, which sounds like a really nasty sneeze when you give Acciajouli a run for its money... it's a world of horror, I tell you. Give me Adam or Richard or Francis any day of the week. You know where you are on those.

'I would take the Lymond books to a desert island, forsaking all other books in the world.'

Ah me too @mimbleandlittlemy !

What a brilliant writer she is! I read these decades ago and they are always with me. I am going to reread when I retire! Her words and twists just delighted me - I remember that first time joy of discovering her work. I found her via Georgette Heyer and Mary Stewart also!

Thanks to this thread I discovered this author and just finished Game of Kings. I'm delighted to read that everyone else just went with it, as I found it quite confusing, but was totally caught up in it by about a third of the way in. How do you all deal with the French/Spanish/Latin/old English? I speak French but was flummoxed by the fact it seems to be written in the French of the time so couldn't always understand it. I just kept reading, taking in what I could, but did I miss a lot by not stopping to translate?

It really doesn’t matter if you don’t translate everything as DD doesn’t ( as far as I recall) put any major plot points In another language. Lymond, naturally, speaks many languages perfectly ( he shares this with Lord Peter Wimsey) but fortunately he doesn’t expect the reader to keep up!

Thanks @pollyhemlock, good to know.

ChinHairDontCare - don't worry about translating at all. You can either let it go, or if you really want to know get a copy of the DD Companions which translate most stuff for you. And some of the stuff Lymond quotes hadn't even been written at that point in the 1500s, so you can add extraordinary literary prescience to his talents 😁.

Dunnett made no secret of her debt to Lord Peter Whimsey and his polyglot ways!!

Lymond, naturally, speaks many languages perfectly ( he shares this with Lord Peter Wimsey) but fortunately he doesn’t expect the reader to keep up!

True. While Dorothy L Sayers most definitely does - I can think of at least 2 of her stories where you miss huge bits if you don't know French or Latin!

I've read both series - preferred Niccolo. Lymond came across as more historical romance targetted at female readership.

Enjoyed both though

Having finished the Nicolo series, I'm on number 2 of Lymond. I'm getting used to the arc of total incomprehension followed by unputdownable excitement.
Can anyone help me on this, though? In number 1, Tom Erskine fiance, Christian, dies. In number 2 he's married. Is his wife the widowed daughter of the widowed Janet Fleming, who appears briefly (with Christian) at the beginning of lymond 1 .

Yes, I think that’s right. There are a lot of margarets, Marys, Jennys and Janets around!

Here’s a character list, I don’t think there are any spoilers: https://dunnett.fandom.com/wiki/QP:Characters

Thank-you!
I've just listened to dd on desert island discs, with Roy plumley, from the 1980s. It's quite interesting- she'd just finished The King Hereafter at that point, and hadn't started the Niccolo series. She's sounds just as I imagined as well!
Has anyone read the Macbeth book?

Which would you recommend to start with, please @Sausagenbacon as I like the sound of these.

I think either, really. But I'd be interested in what others thought.

I’ve read the Macbeth book (King Hereafter). Again it’s incredibly complex with a vast range of characters. My copy has a handy family tree at the end. It requires persistence, but I think it’s an extraordinary portrayal of early medieval Europe.

Thank you @mimbleandlittlemy . I read on my kindle in bed at night before sleep so don't think I'd make a companion book work. @whatapity I have just started with the Lymond series and just finished the first book Game of Kings. It's hard at the start, I was flicking back to the character list a lot, but then the story gets exciting and you're off!

I've King Hereafter on my shelf. It's been there for years and years. I haven't read partly because when I do it will be the last DD I ever read.

Whatapity - technically you should start with Niccolo, then read Lymond but there are 'resonances' in the Niccolo series that you will only recognise as such if you've read Lymond, and the two series interconnect. So I'd do Lymond, Niccolo, Lymond and that'll keep you going for a week or two at least!

I'm not a huge fan of King Hereafter, partly because (sort of Spoiler but the Spoiler is also in the title tbh), if you know Macbeth, you know it's not going to End Well and also I couldn't love the characters in the same way I do through the other books. It is completely and totally stand alone though, so you can read that any time you fancy.

'I'm getting used to the arc of total incomprehension followed by unputdownable excitement'

This is a wonderful description of the book's arc@Sausagenbacon

Thank-you.
I've just started Lymond III, and there are 3 Kerrs.3! Doubtless with other titles as well.
I know it will be worth it though

Am sure it will! It's a while since I read the series bit I remember the complete bafflement in the first few chapters of GoK but being completely captivated by the writing and then again at the start of Queen's Play when they were on the ship - kept thinking where the heck has Lymond gone! But I kept going because I was continually surprised by the plot which was marvelous.