War and Peace Readalong thread 2022

[VikingNorthUtsire]

Interest thread for the 2022 War and Peace readalong

THIS OP WAS UPDATED on 4/1 BY MNHQ (THANK YOU) TO ADD MORE DETAIL TO THE READING SCHEDULE AND UPDATE THE AMAZON LINKS

"The finest novel ever written on this planet"
"Here is a novel that is worth whatever time one gives to it. There is more life between its cover than in any other existent fictional narrative"

This is a really helpful blog post by someone who has done the challenge: nicksenger.com/onecatholiclife/announcing-the-2020-war-and-peace-chapter-a-day-read-along

1. Translations

The main complication seems to be which edition to choose. The blog post above contains some commentary of the different tranlsations that are available and their merits. There's also a pretty comprehensive guide here including samples from some of the best-known translations: welovetranslations.com/2021/08/31/whats-the-best-translation-of-war-and-peace-by-tolstoy/

The main differences that I can see are:

• some editions (including the free download on Project Gutenburg) have a different chapter structure. I think/hope we would manage to find one another if some are reading versions with more or fewer chapters but I have based the readalong on the versions with 361 chapters.

• there's quite a lot of French in at least some parts of the book. Some editions translate it into English, others keep it in French but use footnotes

• some translators have chosen to anglicise the characters' names. I guess its personal preference whether you prefer Mary, Andrew and Basil or a more Russian version.

Looking at the editions recommended and reviewed in the above blog:

The Vintage Classics edition, translated by Pevear and Volokhonsky: ]]

NB also this link for the kindle version: ]]

The Signet Classics edition, translated by Anne Dunnigan: ]]

The Penguin Classics edition, translated by Anthony Briggs: ]]

As a general rule I would definitely recommend downloading a sample of any kindle edition before buying, so you can be sure that you are happy with it.

Obviously, some people will prefer to avoid Amazon! Feel free to use the weeks in the run-up to Day 1 to share any tips on what you are buying and where from. Can I suggest though that we stick where possible to the editions with 361 chapters otherwise we will all get very confused!

1. Reading timeline

Nick, of the blog post, has very helpfully done the calculations for which chapters fall on which days, except he did it in 2020 which was a Leap Year. So feel free to take a look at nicksenger.com/onecatholiclife/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Nicks-2020-War-and-Peace-Chapter-a-Day-Reading-Schedule.pdf but see below the schedule for the Mumsnet Readalong.

Again, different editions name and number their chapters differently - some refer to four books divided into parts (as below), others refer to fifteen books although it's essentially the same structure just with different numbering. Hopefully there's enough info below to keep us all in sync, and always happy to let anyone know via PM what's happening in today's chapter so we can keep together.

Book 1: 1805
Book 1 Part One (25 chapters): 1/1 - 25/1
Book 1 Part Two (21 chapters): 26/1 - 15/2
Book 1 Part Three (19 chapters): 16/2 - 6/3
DAY OFF: 7/3
Book 2: 1806-1812
Book 2 Part One (16 chapters): 8/3 - 23/3
Book 2 Part Two (21 chapters): 24/3 - 13/4
Book 2 Part Three (26 chapters): 14/4 - 9/5
Book 2 Part Four (13 chapters): 10/5 - 22/5
Book 2 Part Five (22 chapters): 23/5 - 13/6
DAY OFF: 14/6
Book 3: 1812
Book Three Part One (23 chapters): 15/6 - 7/7
Book Three Part Two (39 chapters): 8/7 - 15/8
Book Three Part Three (34 chapters): 16/8 - 18/9
DAY OFF: 19/9
Book 4: 1812-13
Book Four Part One (16 chapters): 20/9 - 5/10
Book Four Part Two (19 chapters): 6/10 - 24/10
Book Four Part Three (19 chapters): 25/10 - 12/11
Book Four Part Four (20 chapters): 13/11 - 2/12
DAY OFF: 3/12
Epilogue One 1812-20 (16 chapters): 3/12 - 19/12
Epilogue Two (12 chapters): 20/12 - 31/12

Phew!

I would suggest that we meet at the end of each section (so 17 times over the course of the year) to discuss what we've read, but with (non-spoilerish) chatter welcome at any time in between. According to my guru, Nick, each chapter is around 4 pages long, so it should be do-able.

1. Chapter "meditations"

This looks like another really interesting blog post from someone who has done it, with thoughts and meditations on each chapter: brianedenton.medium.com/a-year-of-war-and-peace-cc66540d9619#.yabefbbgz

Come and join me! This time next year we will almost have finished reading the finest novel ever written on the planet.

PS Some may feel that each day off deserves a shot of vodka or two. I couldn't possibly comment.

That's a good point about how they've known each other since children, MamaNewtNewt.

Pierre's thoughts about the rumours of incestuous love between Helene and Anatole are interesting. Maybe his own attraction to her feels a little incestuous as well.

Oh yes cassandra good point.
I forgot to mention the implied incest that Tolstoy slipped into the last chapter as Pierre is ruminating on his attraction to Hélène:

“No, there’s something disgusting about the way she has aroused me–it’s forbidden fruit. Somebody told me that her brother, Anatole, was in love with her, and she with him, and there was a bit of a scandal, and that’s why Anatole was sent away.”

As far as I remember that's the only reference to it in the novel but the BBC series certainly made it much more overt!

And thanks for the thanks guys, and particular thanks to Fuzzy for taking the more difficult war chapters!

@cassandre

That's a good point about how they've known each other since children, MamaNewtNewt.

Pierre's thoughts about the rumours of incestuous love between Helene and Anatole are interesting. Maybe his own attraction to her feels a little incestuous as well.

Good point, Cassandre. I think you could be right. He seems to feel ashamed as if it's inappropriate.

Tolstoy goes from engagement to married six weeks later in the space of two sentences in this chapter. There are no prurient details of Pierre and Hélène's wedding night and for this we apparently have Mrs Tolstoy to 'thank':

'Tolstoy would often insist that his wife Sofya sit with him while he wrote. She also served as her husband’s first reader, cleaning up his copy and noting changes she thought he should make. At Sofya’s insistence, Tolstoy axed a particularly racy scene from Pierre Bezukhov’s wedding night.'

What a shame, I'd have liked to see what passed as racy back in the day.
The source for the above is this article, which I don't think has any spoilers:

www.mentalfloss.com/article/85834/18-novel-facts-about-war-and-peace

Part III Chapter 2
Vasily is plotting a visit to the Bolkonsky country home in the hope of palming troublesome Anatole off onto loaded, lonely Marya, but first he needs to ensure Hélène has ensnared the love struck Pierre.

Vasily has completely convinced himself that he’s too generous for his own good and is doing Pierre a huge favour by engineering this advantageous match with his daughter - but he is frankly running out of patience, why doesn’t Pierre pop the question already!

Pierre meanwhile is flip flopping between lust for Hélène and the stark realisation that marriage to her is likely to be an unmitigated disaster.
Every day he feels himself being inextricably drawn over a line he doesn’t want to cross -“sucked down deeper and deeper into the ghastly abyss”.
Whilst Pierre is vacillating Russian high society becomes more and more convinced that an engagement between the two love birds is simply a matter of time.

Finally running out of patience Vasily throws a name day party for Hélène, and when Pierre still stubbornly refuses to take that final step, and abandon himself totally to the abyss, Vasily pulls his master stroke - he simply strides towards the couple ‘full of delight’ his face ‘outrageously triumphant’ and heartily congratulates them on their engagement. Pierre already convinced of the inevitability of this union thinks to himself that, ‘All this had to be and couldn’t have been otherwise’, and consoles himself by gazing at the ‘rise and fall of [Hélène’s] superb bosom.’

Now what is it that one says on these occasions, Pierre thinks, it’s on the tip of his tongue, if he could just remember … oh yes that’s it … “I love you”.
But it doesn’t ring true and Pierre feels ‘sick and ashamed’.
Nevertheless six weeks later Pierre is a married man - ‘living in a beautiful house, with a beautiful wife’ and to quote Talking Heads, thinking ‘Well, how did I get here?’

I finished the war chapter last night, so sorry but behind but hope you don’t mind me sharing my thoughts here?

I can’t believe what liars the officers are! What’s the point? The lives of all these earnest men is really nothing in their ploy to gain favour and recognition, I am definitely feeling like Andrei’s bad attitude is merited napkin this case.

With respect to chaos on the battlefield, isn’t that what it is like now? Military practice and practice in advance and then the units do what is planned on the battlefield, Bagration is getting the intel at dinner to build on instruction and planning for next time. I might be incorrectly filling in the gaps here.

What of the villages? It’s very casual mentioned that they set up in this cottage and so on. Have the residents fled or been vacated already?

At GCSE I studied trench warfare and life during the world wars as modules, reading the war chapters was very different to what I learned there. In the book, they’re fight talking with their enemy like before a sports match and they have the option to flee in fear, the enemy cannot be seen and is at a distance. Here it seems they live on top of it, “casually” eating, making fires as the fights go on and their kinsmen die around them.

Linking back to our discussion about the battle of Berlin and the mindset you need to be on the frontline. Unfortunately I think that can only come with dehumanising the enemy, do you have the guts to face them. And then when you’re victorious that same dehumanisation leads to those horrific atrocities.

I’ve been wondering why this is a classic, and been trying to look for the “classic” markers. I think it’s that Tolstoy has made the inner workings of the characters so natural and relatable. Even 200 years later, I can understand Rostov overthinking what his superior thinks of him after he had to apologise and him riding on his horse thinking how to look unaffected! Or Andrei arriving at the War Minister’s office and being super annoyed at not being received how he anticipated, and just sacking the whole lot of them off.

I will say that I notice the inner working of the women and girls are not as natural or relatable! Kittens

Joining in with this, I started a bit late at the end of January but have nearly caught up! I have the same version as @babybythesea (Penguin popular classics, no mention of the translator), so my chapters are totally different to the guide at the start of the thread. My plan is to read 4 pages a day as I calculate this will take approximately a year (I've been reading 8 pages a day to catch up), and I'll try and stay in line with the thread. I'm enjoying the story a lot more than I expected - I really thought this would be a dry and difficult tome, but it's very witty and paints a realistic picture.

Welcome troublegum!

Thank you for your summary Desdemona! Perfect, as usual. Oh dear. Pierre's passivity in that chapter was very annoying. I felt like giving him a shake. He really shouldn't marry Hélène if he's struggling to say 'I love you '. I enjoyed Vasily's intervention, the old rogue.

Here's a telling quote; "Yes, of course it's a very brilliant match, but happiness, my dear. Marriages are made in heaven, retorted the elderly lady". It seems that Pierre isn't the only one who isn't convinced about marrying her. He's doing what's expected of him, but I don't have high hopes for his happiness.

Too true, BakeOffRewatch. We have no insight into any of the minds of the female characters. It's entirely from the male perspective so far even though Tolstoy's wife overlooked his writing as Desdemona points out. Yes, a pity about the deletion of the honeymoon scene. We will have to wonder!

Welcome troublegum, hope there haven't been too many spoilers on the thread if you're reading behind us.

Not to worry @DesdamonasHandkerchief, I've been avoiding spoilers by reading the thread alongside my own reading so I'm only actually up to February 10th on the thread 😁

I've sort of lost any sympathy I had for Pierre over the last couple of chapters. I thimk it's because I really don't like stupid people - argh, that comes across as really harsh but before he seemed a bit of a fool but one I sort of understood after being flung into society due to his father's illness - it was all new and he didn't have the social graces.

Now though, he's so stupid he's being diddled out of money, treated like a child and even marrying someone he hasn't even proposed to. If his social skills were so lacking in the first part, I don't understand why now, he wouldn't say 'Oi, Vasily - I've not asked your daughter to marry me so what's with the congratulations?'

I guess he's just swept up in it all and feels obligated to Prince Vasily and is just taking the easy way out - I don't know. I just feel that what was just a bit of ignorance before has translated into stupidity now...

I'm missing the War!

Yes, I'm finding his complete passivity a bit unconvincing.

I can't believe Pierre was so passive that Price Vasily effectively proposed for him! I this is what happens when Anna M isn't around to keep an eye out for Pierre.

I'm another one who just wanted to reach into the book and give him a shake. Has he learnt nothing from Andrey?

I thought he was torn between head and dick lust!
He knew marrying her would be a disaster but on the other hand he was desperate to get her into bed. By the time Vasily pulled his master stroke he'd succumbed to the inevitability of it and he thought 'Well it's a bloody disaster but at least I'll finally get my end away.

Part III Chapter 3
Meanwhile back at the ranch … Andrei’s father, old Prince Nikolai Bolkonsky, has received a letter from Vasily informing him of his intention to visit Bald Hills with his son Anatole.
Princess Lise shrewdly remarks that there’s no need to ‘wheel Marya out’ in society as the suitors are coming to her instead!
Bolkonsky senior is less than impressed with the prospect of a visit from the Kuragins. He’s never had a high opinion of Vasily and now his dawning realisation of some not very subtle matchmaking afoot has changed his low opinion to outright hostility and contempt.
On the morning of the visit Prince Bolkonsky is in a stinking mood, shouting at the household, and even attempting to beat one poor servant who has had the temerity to clear the long driveway of snow to ease the visitors passage.

Mademoiselle Bourienne, does what she always does in such circumstances and puts on her innocent, ‘I know nothing’, happy face.
Marya in contrast is ‘pale-faced and terrified’, Lise equally so, her life at Bald Hills is ‘lived in a state of continual dread’ and on this occasion she very sensibly ‘pulls a sickie’ to avoid having to be in the same room as her father in law, who she has come to both fear and hate.
(The feeling is mutual we are told as Prince Bolkonsky views his daughter in law with ‘thorough dislike’ and ‘contempt’.)
Mme Bourienne chatters away inconsequently over dinner lifting Bolkonsky Snr’s mood somewhat and later he goes to bark at Lise, on the pretext of enquiring after her health, her pretty chipmunk features have deteriorated in this tense household and she has become ‘more ugly than pretty’ of late.

The Kuragins arrive, their carriage struggling over the snow that Bolkonsky perversely ordered the servants to put back on the driveway. They are shown to their separate rooms. Anatole sees it all as a jolly jape - why not get married to the ‘rich, ugly heiress’ he thinks ‘if she’s got all that money’.
What a Prince among men, lucky, lucky Marya.

In her own room Marya is struggling to control her emotions, she’s embarrassed, tense, lacking in confidence but also excited by the news of a handsome suitor.
Enter Bourienne and Lise who basically say, ‘Bloody hell Marya you’re not going down like THAT are you?’ and set about beautifying her, which of course has the exact opposite effect: ‘Mademoiselle Bourienne and the little princess had to admit to themselves that Princess Marya looked awful dolled up like this, far worse than usual, but it was too late.’
For her part Marya is close to tears and implores them to leave her alone, which, admitting defeat, they do.
She is left to ponder her ugliness whilst dreaming of having a family with, ‘a husband, a man strong and masterful, an unimaginably attractive creature, come to bear her off into an entirely different world of his own, a world of happiness’. (Well Anatole is handsome so that’s one off the check list 🤷‍♀️)
Then she has a moment of religious fervour whilst secretly thinking to herself that a bit of ‘earthly love’ wouldn’t go amiss. (We get you Marya, wink, wink, nudge, nudge) before immediately berating herself for such base, evil thoughts.
She resigns herself to being at the mercy of God’s plan for her future marital status and goes downstairs ‘with no thought for her dress or how her hair was done’ to subjugate herself to the will of God - and the machinations of the Kuragins.

Thanks Desdemona! Prince Balkonsky is quite the tyrant in this chapter. Ordering the servant to put the snow back on the driveway was a petty thing to do.
The ladies of Bald Hill have a lot to put up with. Poor Marya trying to look her best and failing. You can sense the pressure she's under. Of the three of them, Mlle Bourienne seems best able to cope. I'd say she is a tougher character than either Marya or Lise.

Poor Marya indeed! Tolstoy’s really laying bare her lack of agency. She wants to get married (which is her only ‘career’ option anyway), but has no power to go out and find a man who will love and respect her. She lacks the vital currency of beauty - her character is clearly of no account - and her only other currency is actual currency, which attracts fortunate hunters. Down with the patriarchy!
Also the bit about replacing the snow was comical, but it’s not the Prince out there in the cold, no doubt without adequate clothing, doing all the shovelling.

At least she has 'Magic eyes'

At least poor girl!

Poor Marya... Tolstoy really seems to dislike women, doesn't he! None of them have any redeeming characteristics and even the little chipmunk has become ugly despite being supposedly stunning in the first few chapters.

Someone earlier in the thread said how it's all written from a very male perspective and I have to agree. There is no flesh to the women's bones (other than the heaving sort) and they have no inner depths or real personality. I know its a 'sign of the times', when women really didn't have any agency or career paths and, to be fair, Marya is at least educated but it feels like they've been added in as a side note to all the brave, blustering men. I mean, Prince Vasily is a devious, manipulative so-and-so but he's written very sympathetically compared to ole Anna M from the first part who was portrayed as a scheming harridan!

I certainly don't remember being as cross about the treatment of women when I read this before but then, I was in my 20s and a much milder feminist than I am now! Down with the patriarchy indeed!!

I'm trying to consider who Tolstoy was writing for. Perhaps he was writing for men, who he perceived would be interested in war and therefore the women are of little consequence? Perhaps he wrote this way because he was a man and didn't have sufficient insight into women - a bit like Jane Austen never really giving us much from the male perspective, though I suppose she at least made some effort to present them as desirable acquaintances. That said, I read some 19th century Russian short stories recently (Nikolai Leskov if interested - A Winter's Day is the story) where Tolstoy and his stories were being discussed avidly by two women who clearly really enjoyed his work, so perhaps women were reading, though I don't know the accuracy of this story but Leskov did know Tolstoy. I guess if his intention is the men as his 'main' characters then that is a choice. That said, we still have about 800 pages to go... so maybe there is more to come.

I'm playing devil's advocate, rather than disagreeing with anything already said.

Interesting questions, StColombofNavron. I would go with the fact that he is a man lacking insight into women. It might not be deliberately done and as SanFranBear points out, it's most likely a sign of the times. We will have to see how the rest of the novel goes!

Agree, the women here are real cutout characters. While I agree that Austen's men are bit players they do still come across as having personality / solidity.

And I also can't help comparing with Thackeray / Vanity Fair - earlier, and also written by a man, but such good women characters!