War and Peace discussion thread

[TooExtraImmatureCheddar]

For all things Rostov, Bezukhov and Bolkonsky - come in, pour yourself some tea from the samovar and settle down to debate love, politics, war and religion. Or if that sounds too hard, you can just bitch about the Freemasons or the BBC version.

Spoilers - what do people think? It will be a bit hard to discuss without posting any spoilers, but maybe we could write SPOILER! at the beginning of a post if it has something major in it.

I am 45% into it on my Kindle, but it's taken me 2 years to get this far! How far has everyone else got?

Helene was an interesting character too. Pierre thought she was so stupid, but she managed to establish her credentials as the most brilliant hostess in society. I noticed that Tolstoy later has a dig at clever women, comparing them to 'real women' like Natasha, who doesn't understand any of her husband's projects but just feels they are important. So what was the point in mocking Helene for being stupid? Or is the point that she isn't stupid at all, Pierre just thinks she is? She dies horribly as well, with the botched abortion - clearly the unvirtuous woman getting her comeuppance. Her concept of being able to get divorced just because she wants to is very modern, and why shouldn't she? She and Pierre were clearly miserable together. It's hard to make out whether Tolstoy approves or disapproves of divorce. I'm assuming he disapproves, because he kills Helene off, but equally, he may have had to kill her off so that Pierre could be free to marry Natasha. He portrays Helene as going around saying she doesn't know which of her lovers she wants to marry very disingenuously, which distracts everyone from the divorce issue. Is the real point that society may be distracted, but Helene is still married in God's eyes? Not sure.

Do you think Natasha is actually really attracted to Pierre? It almost reads a bit like a rebound relationship - she was flattered by Andrew's proposal, but really, she always seemed a bit nervous of their relationship, and then she fell hook, line and sinker for Anatole - and that was definitely a very physical attraction. I suppose she and Pierre seem to have this very close understanding of each other - Pierre helps Natasha to realise that she is not to blame for being alive when Andrew is dead.

Oh, someone else I like is the old field marshal, Kutozov. He saw everything so clearly - the Russians didn't need to fight, they just had to make sure the French fled properly. And then he was reviled by history for it.

Yes that's true about Pierre. He's busy philosophising while everyone else is at war, then ends up doing the heroics in Moscow. I think maybe it is to show Pierre as a hero. Tolstoy is funny. He has such a long book, but some things just seem very jumpy in their character development.

I breadvsomewhere that Tolstoy vwanted Natasha to bge his ideal nwoman. That all her cattractions cwere just leading to her true vocation as a wife and mother. I'm not sure how much I agree with that, as as you say, he mocks her a bit and says she's not very likeable in society. Yes, Helene is killed off in such a horrible manner, but she seems much happier and has much more fun than Natasha. I'm not sure what he's trying to say. That too much cavorting about always ends in tears?

I don't think Natasha does love Pierre. She has known him since childhood so feels secure. There is a lot about Pierre's love at the start of their relationship but nothing from her until she has the children. That's what I mean. She is in love with being in love. Not really any person in particular.

I liked Kutzov too. I kind of knew that was what happened, but yes he knew how to spot his advantages and use them. He had the courage of his convictions.

Apologies for all the typos in that post! My tablet always puts random c's everywhere and I have to change them!!!

I have no idea how they are going to fit the rest of the book into the TV adaptation. I'm presuming they are going to need most of the final episode for the epilogue so that's 2 and a half episodes at most for the whole of the 1812 business, Moscow, Helene, Andre, Mary, everything.

I read War in Peace in high school, and haven't re-read since. Anna Karenina was always my favourite Tolstoy's novel.
As for the surname spelling - it is Rostov for male, Rostova for female, so it's not the Rostovas family exactly.
Sonya is a product of her upbringing, always in the background, always a victim.
And talking of the TV adaptation, it is not bad, apart from Natasha and Helene, these two I find very unconvincing. Lily James' Natasha is so vacuous, it's hard to understand why everyone falls for her.

Anna Karenina stayed with me in a way W&P hasn't really. I might reread it after I've had some pulp fiction to rest my brain

I think Natasha in the book is vacuous! People fall for her because she prances about prettily and dances and makes eyes at them, as far as I can see! Only Pierre really has known her long enough.

I hate hate hate Lily James. She annoys the crap out of me in Downton and in Cinderella. She actually looks cross-eyed with vapidity.

See, I liked her in Downton until they married her off and turned her into a simpering do gooder.

I think this link belongs to this thread:
www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/what-do-we-love-about-war-and-peace?mbid=social_facebook

That was an interesting read.Thanks ☺

I liked it too - especially pointing out that Tolstoy was only concerned about the aristocracy. Wtf was with that quote about how they are more refined?

I do keep thinking about W&P despite having finished it - perhaps that's a sign of a good book as well. I think it's partly that I want to make sure I understood it properly!

Yes I'm the same! I keep looking at this and the telly addicts thread. It's still on my mind even though I've moved onto another book!

Hi everyone - I'm not reading the thread for fear of spoilers, but wanted to ask if you could recommend a Kindle edition of War And Peace. There are quite a few out there that are apparently very badly edited/translated. Thank you for your help.

Hi, If I remember correctly, both of us who've finished read the Maude version because its free! I found it fine, although they anglicised all the names, which was a bit unnecessary IMO! I think the best translation is by a husband and wife team, but I don't know what it's called.

The one I'm reading is Pevear and Volokhonsky which is the one I think regenerationfez means?

It is probably the best one available on Kindle. There don't seem to be many errors and it's been fine so far - apart from the occasional clunkiness which I've complained about before and the ludicrous way Denisov's dialogue is rendered. That's a relatively minor gripe.

I believe someone has edited the Maude version and re-russified (!) the names and it's available on Kindle.

Yes that's the one! Obviously I haven't read both so don't know whether it's worth the extra 99p

£7.31 for a Kindle book whose copyright has lapsed?

Oh indeed. I didn't notice the price. I think my P&V was about a fiver. So not that much cheaper, but still...

I think they're cashing in there! Even if the book wasn't 150 years old, I think Tolstoy gave away the copyright for free. Cheeky beggars!

I'm only half way through part one - Maria has just turned Anatole down - but I'm finding it hard work to be honest. I don't like any of the characters. Do they get less unpleasant?

I didn't like any of the characters either! But somehow the book has stayed with me. TBH there is a lot of tedious detail you have to look forward to! I would say no, the characters have a moment of redemption but they are essentially immensely privileged and spoilt and continue to be so.

I would recommend persevering though I forgot to say that! They are flawed but fascinating!!

Just to add, regeneration, Tolstoy examined himself through his characters. He was ashamed of his past and his wealthy class. Pierre and Andrei are flawed as Tolstoy intended them to be. They are himself. If my memory serves me correctly,Natasha was modelled on his sister in law. Tolstoy spent his later life trying to redeem himself and we see this again in Anna Karenina in Levin as he tries to improve the peasant's lot. Tolstoy's marriage was not a success. Have you ever seen those scenes filmed by the world's press as Tolstoy lay dying in a station masters house? Sonia was desperately trying to see her husband through the window. This after she copied War and Peace out for him at least three times and gave him all those children. Listen to Dolly in Anna Karenina as she tells you of her agonising over childbirth and nursing sick children. That is Sonia. However, I remember being totally in love with Pierre when I was a teenager. Then I was not able to appreciate the whole picture but I still love him despite rereading a couple of years ago.

I am listening to W&P on Audible narrated by Neville Jason.
I can see why people love this book! It's so far been enormous pleasure listening to it and I am looking forward to many more hours with all 500 characters