War and Peace discussion thread

[TooExtraImmatureCheddar]

For all things Rostov, Bezukhov and Bolkonsky - come in, pour yourself some tea from the samovar and settle down to debate love, politics, war and religion. Or if that sounds too hard, you can just bitch about the Freemasons or the BBC version.

Spoilers - what do people think? It will be a bit hard to discuss without posting any spoilers, but maybe we could write SPOILER! at the beginning of a post if it has something major in it.

I am 45% into it on my Kindle, but it's taken me 2 years to get this far! How far has everyone else got?

Spoiler alert, PMSL at the Tolstoyian version of emo angst between Julie and Boris. I think one if the interesting things about this (and maybe it's to do with the translation) is that Tolstoy just writes something and doesn't really commentate - so in this instance, he doesn't come right out and say that Julie was being ridiculous, he leaves it to you to draw that conclusion. Whereas a lot of writers would hammer home the point by having someone reflect on it.

I know so little of Russian history except a little bit about the revolution and Anastasia

The Anastasia/Anna Anderson stuff obsessed me when I was a teen. My dad bought me a book called The File on the Tsar and the authors argued very strenuously that her claims were not impossible. This was before there was incontrovertible evidence that Anastasia died along with the others.

Apparently, in 2002, the authors attempted to refute the DNA evidence released by the Russian government. Fascinating stuff.

I loved the whole idea of the Anastasia story too, Natasha. Interesting about the authors - I imagine they didn't get far?!

Cheddar Tolstoyian emo angst sounds fantastic - I'll attempt to get there tonight/tomorrow. Am currently caught up in Sonya and Nicholas. I think you're absolutely right about the fact that he doesn't commentate - I wonder if we don't get much of Natasha's thoughts for the same reason ie. he wants us to realise that she doesn't have many!

I imagine they didn't get far?! I think that they were pretty much dismissed as loons. But they were well respected investigative writers/journalists. One of them (Tom Mangold) worked on Panorama for years.

On this reading I haven't got to the major part of Natasha's story yet but I think we get to see her maturing and changing with her experiences. I think early on we're meant to see what a cosseted life she has led up until the changes the war brings for everybody. She hasn't had to think about anything but dancing and boys and trivial things.

I do appreciate the contrast between the brilliant but dysfunctional Bolkonskys - with that truly gruesome father (Jim Broadbent notwithstanding) - and the ordinary, happy, generous, loving Rostovs. Although, poor Vera seems on the outside of all that. And then you have Pierre, who hasn't known any family life whatsoever, dysfunctional or otherwise.

It's all shaping up nicely.

I've got up to the 45% mark too now. I've changed my mind. Nicholas is an idiot. I'm desperately trying to read ahead to get some purchase on Natasha so I can watch the second episode of w&p on the telly, but yes, her character still is very undeveloped. My opinion of Andei hasn't improved much either...

I like Sonya. She has so much more sense than Natasha. I hope she ends up happy with Nicholas (or someone else with half a brain who doesn't need her to be dressed as a Cossack with a cork moustache before realising he fancies her).

I think I've read more than episode 2 will cover. I've just finished the elopement bit (for fear of spoilers I'm not mentioning the names of the elopers!). Oh dear, though, more war is coming now. I hope it's more interesting than the first war.

Yes I prefer Sonya. But really both Natasha and Nicholas are their silly fathers children aren't they? All have addictive personalities. The men to spending money and Natasha to falling in love with every passing male.

OK, Andrei is a bit of a bastard at the beginning, but he gets some heroic moments and then...

Won't spoil it for you!

Oh alrght, I'll wait for his heroic bits!!!

Am on 46% now but seem to have been here for ages. Hoping to hit 50% by the end of tomorrow.

regeneration - I agree with you about Natasha and Nicholas being their father's children. Interesting point about the addictive personalities.

Cheddar - ooh, elopement sounds interesting! More war less so....

I thought that when I got to 46%. I'm reading the war bits but they were all a bit blah blah, when can we get back to the good bits. I'm at the 1812 conflict now, which I studied for history from the French point of view so I'm a bit more interested. Elopement bit good

I put the 1812 overture on YouTube when I got to Napoleon's invasion! Haven't read any more today - have been reading light and frivolous fantasy instead.

Can anyone explain to me whether the wolf hunt bit is highly symbolic? And if so, does the wolf represent the old Russia, or Natasha, or what? It reads like it's there to make a point but I think I'm missing it.

Right, am back on W&P.

Spoiler: everyone is now blaming Mlle Bourienne for the breakdown of relations between the Bolkonskis. But it's not her fault at all, or only indirectly by being the (presumable) mistress of the old prince. It's all down to Prince Nicholas behaving terribly to Princess Mary, and to Andrew by refusing to acknowledge his engagement to Natasha. It's his fault. He just has both his children so browbeaten that they can't lay blame where it belongs, even in private.

massive spoilers

I missed the bear hunt point too! It did seem a bit chucked in. I agree about the old prince. He's so awful to his children they're too afraid to disobey him.However I detected a bit of reluctance on Andre's part despite his proposal. She is so young and naive and he's a widower with a child.He probably couldn't believe she would be happy with him. And judging by the ease in which she just fell in love with Anatoly he was probably right.

spoilers again

And I disagree that the war made Natasha grow up. She was the master of her own destruction, aided and abetted by her over indulgent parents.

Which bit, regeneration? Spoilers I was thinking what a spoilt child she still was when she took poison and then woke Sonya up to tell her what she'd done. It doesn't read at all like a suicidal adult who actually meant to kill herself - it reads like a spoilt child trying to escape the consequences of her actions. I was quite shocked!

With all the problems associated with having read WaP 10 years ago, think the episode after the hunt at uncle's house with the food and music is very touching and fits in with the whole rather well. Tell me what you think at the end. I don't know anyone in real life who has read this. (Except my husband who as I said earlier couldn't remember who Natasha was!)

Goodness, you're both judging Natasha harshly.

I think if you're determined to condemn her, there's no shortage of ammunition. She does behave very badly over Anatole. But I think her reception by Princess Marya and the old prince's deliberate insult make her ripe for Anatole's cynical pursuing of her. Their behaviour hurts and confuses her and, for the first time, show her the opposition they feel towards the marriage as opposed to simply hearing that they aren't in favour.

To my mind, she redeems herself utterly during the retreat from Moscow - despite not knowing just who all the wounded are - and subsequently.

I am willing to be convinced, Natasha! I haven't got that far yet. I'm on 57% and Tolstoy is doing a lot of fatalistic explaining about how nobody was a military genius who actually intended to lure the French into the Russian interior, and Napoleon wasn't a military genius either and really the Russians won by accident.

I did like the episode with the Russian dancing at Uncle's house. I think Natasha is interesting because she is portrayed as such an innocent who is very receptive to atmosphere etc, but then she suddenly takes her destiny into her own hands with the Anatole incident and totally messes up. Not many heroines have that much agency to make mistakes.

I think Natasha is interesting because she is portrayed as such an innocent who is very receptive to atmosphere etc, but then she suddenly takes her destiny into her own hands with the Anatole incident and totally messes up

She does mess up. When I get to that part I always think the same as I do with Emma at the Box Hill picnic: "Don't do it!" Sadly, she always does.

Being 'receptive to atmosphere' was sort of what I was saying, I think. On meeting Andrei's family, she is suddenly confronted by his sister's apparent coldness and his father's studied insult. She could ignore it before because it wasn't a reality but now she can't avoid it.
Add to that the separation from Andrei - and her fears that he's staying away deliberately - and her mother's unease over the engagement which one assumes she'd pick up on, even if never articulated out loud.

If you put all that together and take her youth into account (I find it difficult to deal with overt hostility and I'm 50 something. And these people are her prospective in-laws ) then you can begin to understand her susceptibility to Anatole's blandishments.

It doesn't excuse her but, IMO, it allows you not to completely condemn her.

yes I probably was being a bit harsh there. Comparing her to the other female chapters like Sonya, Mary and even the little we see of Vera, she seems supremely vacuous and spoilt. I think her parents are most to blame. She is clearly indulged andboth she and Nicholas get a massive shock when they realise that the world is not all in thrall to them. Its kind of what I meant about her being the architect of her own destruction with the suicide attempt. Its another piece of melodrama because she's too young and naive to deal with the consequences of her actions. Everyone then just forgets how inconsiderate and stupid she's been but her parents still indulge her and forget about her behaviour towards Sonya and their host. Am just getting to the retreat from Moscow bit. I think I'm going to have to re read the war bits as I lost concentration and can't remember any of it!

I realised I didn't answer your question tooextra I think she was forced to grow up due to what happened to her not necessarily because of the war. Maybe I'm overly disappointed in her because I expected her to be something different. I've still not got over how awful Cathy and Heathcliffe are in Wuthering Heights!

I'm struggling with all the Napoleon/Kutozov bits and Andre's really really long monologue to Pierre about the gravity of war. I'm at 65% and I just want it to go back to Natasha or for something to happen that isn't just explanations of military tactics and how useless they are. Does this go on for much longer?

Cathy and Heathcliff are terrible! Give me Jane Eyre any day.