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War and Peace discussion thread

168 replies

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 06/01/2016 13:12

For all things Rostov, Bezukhov and Bolkonsky - come in, pour yourself some tea from the samovar and settle down to debate love, politics, war and religion. Or if that sounds too hard, you can just bitch about the Freemasons or the BBC version.

Spoilers - what do people think? It will be a bit hard to discuss without posting any spoilers, but maybe we could write SPOILER! at the beginning of a post if it has something major in it.

I am 45% into it on my Kindle, but it's taken me 2 years to get this far! How far has everyone else got?

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TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 13/01/2016 23:05

Oh! The thing I thought had happened hasn't. It was a rumour. (She says cryptically Wink) Pierre was told something that he thought was true. Before Moscow.

I have just reached Natasha being really good at packing and the surprising end to that chapter.

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regenerationfez · 13/01/2016 23:21

Oh so you're not up to the bit I thought yet. Another thing happens later re: Pierre!

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 14/01/2016 09:20

Oh good. Action is good. War philosophy is NOT good. (God I sound like a philistine!)

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regenerationfez · 14/01/2016 12:34

Yes I agree acting n bits good. I can definitely see how they cut the book down to 6 episodes for the telly Grin

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 14/01/2016 20:12

Grin So can I!

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TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 14/01/2016 20:57

82% now. I do like Princess Mary. But I also like Sonya, despite efforts to paint her as a conniving bitch. Natasha is definitely appearing in a much better light and is behaving with great sensitivity and nobility.

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regenerationfez · 14/01/2016 21:18

I didnt see Sonya being portrayed cas a conniving bitch. I know what you mean, that she wants Natasha to marry Andre so she can marry Nicholas, but I just saw that as her being someone who had been promised marriage by Nicholas and still loving him, despite him being away with Mary and the opposition of Countess Rostovas and him being a massive dick She's stuck in that house with the old Countess unmarried if Nicholas doesn't marry her.

LookingForMe · 14/01/2016 21:26

Oh I'm so far behind you both!

Am at 60% now. Still on track to finish by the end of January, which was my aim.

I'm not sure I see how they're going to fit everything into 6 episodes. 2 episodes in and nowhere near a third of the way through the book. I know there's a lot of non-action which can definitely be cut but there still seem to be quite a lot of key events to cover.

regenerationfez · 14/01/2016 22:10

I'm on 81% now. The telly will definitely be edited highlights! The interminable wars will probably be cut down to a couple of scenes but there is so much on tactics and philosophising about wars that can I suppose be dealt with in a book but not Sunday night drama. Let's see.

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 15/01/2016 12:41

Spoiler alert

With Sonya, I meant the bit where she writes to Nicholas releasing him, but she only does that because she doesn't think he'll accept that. She's trying to be noble in the eyes of the countess but she thinks she's on safe ground, little knowing that Nicholas is going to take her seriously! I do wonder how it's all going to turn out. It seems a bit weird that Nicholas can't picture his future with Mary.

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regenerationfez · 15/01/2016 14:11

Oh yeah I forgot that bit. . I still feel bad for her. She's been holding out for him for so many years and he has strung her along really. The family have taken her in but not really treated her as their own.

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 15/01/2016 14:19

Do you think that in the 1800s everyone thought war was amazeballs and noble and that generals were the bee's knees? That might explain all the emphasis on wars being disorganised and all a matter of luck and the spirit of the army being crucial.

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TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 15/01/2016 14:20

I'm on 87%. I am trying to do a big push to finish it so I can read something interesting and frivolous.

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regenerationfez · 15/01/2016 15:03

I think it was, want it? The Napoleonic wars were all about glory. I'm not sure if it was this or the Crimean where the British soldiers would fight in red tunics as it was all a matter of pride and red was the National colour. But it meant they stuck out like a sore thumb. To be honest, even WW1 was all noble marching to oblivion and propaganda.

I need to plough through the reasons for the war bit, then I'll do a big push to the end! I have girl on a train I want to read...

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 16/01/2016 00:54

Done! Finally! Well, I gave up on bloody Epilogue 2 and skimmed it to see if it ever went back to the characters. It doesn't, it just witters on about freedom and inevitability and I don't know what else. Historians of 3 types. Napoleon. West to east and east to west. Power. My advice to everyone is just to read to the end of Epilogue 1 and leave it at that. Jesus. Tolstoy can never say something just the once, can he?

I will do a proper critique tomorrow but right now my brain is utterly fried.

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regenerationfez · 16/01/2016 09:59

Well done!! I'll vattenpt to finish it today then we don't have too worry about spoilers! ( apart from looking of course!)

regenerationfez · 16/01/2016 15:11

I've finished! Although I only read epilogue 1. Shall I bother going on? I'm ready for a rant but I'm making biscuits with my son so don't have time at the momentGrin

LookingForMe · 16/01/2016 18:05

I think I'll step away from the thread for a while so you two can discuss spoilers! I will return once I've finished....

Am only on 62% as got distracted by my light read this week. I need to up the ante on W&P a bit this weekend, I think. Am very impressed that you're both finished!

regenerationfez · 16/01/2016 18:41

Well I have a broken foot so am being forced to sit around with my feet up so found it fairly easy to find the timeGrin

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 16/01/2016 20:10

Yay for another finishee! Excellent decision not to read Epilogue 2. So what did you think? Best book ever or a bit meh?

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regenerationfez · 16/01/2016 20:34

Spoilers galore!

Right, Here is what I thought: I did enjoy reading it, although I don't think I'll be reading it again in a hurry. The characters really stayed with me, even the ones I didn't like virtually the entire Rostov clan!!. I suppose that's the sign of a good book, the emotional connection to the characters, even if the emotion is dislike!

The theorising I found incredibly difficult and I didn't think it added anything much to the story. This might have been my fault as it didnt register with me at all and I just wanted it to end. The fictional mixed with facts account of the wars were very descriptive and truly portrayed the futility and horror of war for soldiers and civilians.

Right. The Rostovas. Old count and Countess were incredibly indulgent of their children, to the extent of being neglectful. They did not prepare their children for life at all. You could say that this was the way the aristocracy was, but the fact that when they come into contact with others of the same background, they also find them to be somewhat lacking in common sense shows they are particularly sheltered and pampered. When Petya goes to war, he has the same attitude as Nicholas has that it's all a big adventure and he can't be killed because he's so charming. I think it was Denisov who recalled his failure to follow instructions and gung ho attitude. It was what got him killed. The only child who gets out normally is Vera, the least loved of the children, until Nicholas steps upnto the plate after his father's death and years away from the family at war.

I haven't changed my opinion of Natasha that she is an incredibly addictive personality. For much of the book, she is led by her addiction to falling in love and being the centre of drama. She doesn't love Andre. How could she? She saw him briefly for a matter of weeks, had a year without contact before breaking off her engagement and then didn't see him again for years until he is mortally wounded and dying. It seems as if this is yet another drama in her life soap opera. Sonya also nurses the sick soldiers but Natasha gets to be the grieving widow who nursed her one true love. Her pleasure in seeing her thin body and the fuss everyone was making is evidence of this. Her quick and sudden love for Pierre, as the Princess thought also shows this.

When she is married, she just replaces one addiction for another. She becomes obsessed with having the perfect family. She has to completely hideaway from her beauty, her singing and dancing, just in case she attracts other men and breaks up her perfect family. She doesn't trust herself or anyone es
lse she or Pierre might come into contact with. She micro manages Pierre and doesnt dare have a thought in her head that is not her husbands. I believe this is as a result of her parents utter failure to protect her from herself and from the men who seemed bewitched by her at too young an age.

For all of the Old Prince Nicholas's faults, you get the feeling he wanted to protect his children. I got the feeling he would have stopped Mary marrying Anatoly and he stopped Andre marrying Natasha because he saw a very young flighty girl from a family that was on the brink of self made financial ruin. She would have had to be responsible for little Nicholas as well as a large estate. The Rostov's all seem to live in a fairytale. They did nothing to protect their children at all.

Sonya. Poor Sonya. I feel terrible for her. She's such a sweet girl. She just gets on with it, doing what's expected of her, being in love with Nicholas to the detriment of her own unhappiness. She is right to display envy of Natasha, who has had to do somlittle but gets so much love and attention. Natasha and Mary even virtually dehumanise her by calling her a 'sterile flower' to ease their own guilt, leaving her to care for the old Countess Rostova who also treats her with contempt while they are busy with their own children and lives.

Cor that was a long post! I just had to get it off my chest! I might be completely wrong about all of this. I might well have missed huge chunks of important plot points and nuanxes because it wascso bloodly long! I'm looking forward to seeing what the TV picks up!

SonyaAtTheSamovar · 16/01/2016 23:11

Spoiler

Thank you for noticing me behind this samovar!

I felt for Sonya. The modern Sonya would just go off travelling for a while and find herself getting over the heartbreak. But to be there forever in the family. What a fate.

HappydaysArehere · 17/01/2016 17:44

I have loved W & P since the age of 14. I asked our Literature teacher which novel was the greatest ever written. She answered "that is a difficult question but if pushed I would say W & P". I then asked my dad if I could have it for Christmas. I still have the Everyman edition in three volumes which is a great way to read it, volume by volume and in no hurry. It is easy to read but you must not rush. I was definitely in love with Peter (or Pierre). When I finished it at the end of the school holidays I wanted to begin it again and in true teenage emotional overdrive I declared that now I had read the greatest novel ever I only had disappointment ahead as I read other books......that is until I opened another Christmas gift..Gone With The Wind. I reread W & P two years ago and still loved it with a passion. So much so that I couldn't leave that Russian world and reread Anna Karenina which I never enjoyed nearly as much as W & P. I disliked Anna and preferred her husband. Then I found Ressurection about a juror who found the defendant in court was someone he had let down years before. Tolstoy wrote it to fund the escape to Canada of a persecuted religious group.
Sorry this is so long but just trying to encourage would be readers to not be put off by the idea of a slightly longer book. Lots of books are 800 or 900 pages long and this is around 1200. Three volumes makes it easy.

regenerationfez · 17/01/2016 19:00

Oh yes, I'm glad I read it, even just to challenge my brain. I was scared of starting it and read ballnbthe preparatory stuff before daring to start! There are difficult bits to it but most of it is very readable. happy did you see the characters differently, reading it as a 14 year old to reading it now? I would imagine you would see Natasha for example from the perspective of a teenage girl and when older you would see it fromnthe perspective of an adult. I always thought that when I re-read Catcher in the Rye. When I was a teenager, he was a misunderstood rebel without a cause, when I re-read it as an adult I found him incredibly irritating kid!

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 17/01/2016 19:49

I am glad I read it too, but I ended up with utter brain freeze afterwards and it took me a day to recover!

Sonya - I totally agree that the 'sterile flower' bit was horrible of Natasha and Mary! She has no choice but to stay there, because she has no money of her own, and what else could she have done? There was no escape for her, and I think Nicholas treated her shabbily. Okay, he fell in love with Mary, but he didn't need to keep Sonya living in his house as an unpaid companion/governess/housekeeper type. He could have arranged for her to live with Natasha or Vera or somebody, rather than under his roof helping raise his children.

Petya - it was so sad! He was such a typical boy - they should never have let him enlist in the first place.

Natasha - she did grow on me. I liked the fact that she insisted that the wounded come in the carts with them, and she was lovely to Andrew when he was dying. I don't think she and Andrew really knew each other either - in a lot of ways she knew Pierre a lot better. I didn't like the description of her jealousy as a wife either, and the way that Pierre was too afraid to even talk to other women. Pierre was a good and virtuous man, he wasn't going to start flirting with other women anyway!

In general I thought it was very interesting that neither Andrew nor Pierre do anything much in the war. Pierre's heroic credentials are established very quickly - he saves the little girl, and he saves the woman from being raped. I think that's Tolstoy making the point that Pierre is a hero, but it was very rushed (the only thing that is rushed!). But after that he is just a prisoner, and Andrew was just another soldier. Neither of them achieve anything - it's all about their spiritual epiphanies. Andrew finds that life is beautiful and happiness is possible, and he forgives Anatole and Natasha. Pierre discovers that his wealth has been inhibiting him all the time and that all the flailing around with different ideals (Freemasons, freeing his serfs etc, the weird stuff with the number of the Beast and making up crap to say he ought to kill Napoleon) was just because he didn't know where he was going in life and what he needed was a good spell locked up in a shed as a prisoner of war. Can you tell I would love to try having endless money and see if I felt a spiritual malaise as a result?

Posting this now as DD is insisting on sitting on my arm and I'm sure she's going to accidentally delete it all!

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