Does becoming overweight set up permanent weight problems for life?

[Mudmagnetoftheworld]

Do people who’ve managed to lose a decent amount of weight, say more than a couple of stone, ever manage to maintain a healthy weight effortlessly?

Is it just a matter of changing lifestyle and attitudes to eating and exercise? Or once you’ve been overweight do you always struggle to keep it off?

After being skinny all through my childhood, teens 20’s & 30’s, I’m now pushing 50 and managed to get myself 2-3 stone overweight!

Is that it for me now? If I manage to lose it, do I need to accept I’ll have to exist on hardy any food?

I was loosing 1-2lb a week when I first started in May, being extra strict. Then relaxed things while we were on holiday in July so just to maintain the loss, which I did.
Getting back on the strict wagon once home hasn’t worked however. Which is where my frustration kicked in.

P.S.
You’ve done brilliantly to lose the weight! How long did it take you?

@HorridHoris

It took me four months; could have been quicker as I made a few mistakes, hey ho. Ups and downs - weight loss is not linear because the body resists - but the trend was reasonably steady.

Your attitude is perfect. Pragmatic is the way to go.

​*@HorridHoris*

Right, back on topic.

So we have three types of macro nutrients to consider: carbs , proteins and fats.

Let’s deal with protein first because it’s easier to deal with.

The body needs proteins - nothing surprising I hope. Like fats (but unlike carbs), they are essential to life. In particular, proteins are needed for their essential amino acids ("AAs") - ie the nine AAs the body can’t synthesise on its own. AAs are needed for cell structure and cell regeneration. Animal proteins are complete - comprise all nine. Some plants also do. So it's generally better - but not necessary - to consume animal protein to ensure the proteins consumed are complete. If you don't consume the nine essential AAs one way or another your body will break down its own muscle to access them, so protein is pretty important, but I guess we all know this.

A few more interesting things to know about protein:

• for the amount needed for AAs, it is estimated that the body will consume 30% of the caloric value in breaking them down.

• Excess over what is needed - ie if you eat more protein than required for cell structure / regeneration - will be converted to glucose via a process called gluconeogenesis (which means making glucose from new). What this then boils down to is proteins become sugar / glucose in excess. Excessive protein consumption is sometimes where people get it wrong in terms of weight management - happened to me

• It is estimated you only need from 0.8 to 1.5g per kg of muscle mass. In your case it’s probably 0.8g so based on what you told me you do not need more than 40 to 50g of protein per day - shoot for 50g to be safe. But care needs to be taken here if you start exercising more you will need to ramp this up

So remember this: try to cap protein consumption in MyFitnessPal to 50 g or so a day, mainly out of convenience you can track the other two macros.

And: this is TODAY's consumption. Review this regularly. As muscle mass increases, so too should protein consumption.

• As a measure, a 200g chicken breast has 60g of protein ...

It’s important to track protein - and limit it to what you need only - as it will allow you to assess where you stand on the glucose vs fat spectrum. But no need to obsess on this all the time

With me before we move onto fats and carbs?

Makes sense.
I didn’t realise excess protein is converted to glucose too...good god the human body is sneaky!

Am altering MFP settings as protein was on 75g just on tweaking the percentages.

@HorridHoris

The body is awesomely clever. Did you know fat (glycerol molecule split off from fatty acids) can convert to glucose ... ! Then back again!

Don't worry so much about the protein, just watch it. Some people eat 200g a day and wonder why the fat still layers on. That was yours truly for a while

I'll move to carbs next in a little while. Just good stuff to keep in mind.

Then fats.

Then we can talk about what a better combination of fats vs carbs might be in your particular case. OK?

Finding this very interesting reading although I have a much much much much longer weightloss journey ahead of me

Thanks so much for your time and input it is appreciated

Interesting thread. On your calorie intake and activity levels you should really be losing. Have you had your thyroid checked?

@HorridHoris

Sure. Happy to help ... This takes time to figure it all out. I'm thinking you are the one who needs to give yourself your own advice. I am actually not going to do this for you but I can help validate your choice and tell you the pros / cons of YOUR choice.

I'm just giving you the tools ...

Carbs now ...

When carbs are consumed, whether simple (like candy) or complex (pasta, potatoes, rice), the body converts the carbs to glucose which is one of the only two fuels for the body ... as we've established.

This increases blood sugar which then causes the secretion of insulin as a means bring blood sugar down to a normal range. Simple carbs cause a higher and sharper insulin spike than complex carbs which take more time to break down.

So some context on insulin ... Necessary evil. Here's the way I understand it works.

The insulin will attach to the glucose and take it where it is needed in a pecking order (not sure I have this 100% right but should be directionally correct). 1) immediate energy needs 2) restore liver glycogen 3) restore muscle glycogen 4) excess stored as fat. There's a pathway to the real energy molecule - ATP - but it's not important and frankly I forget how it works.

Some things to know about insulin and its sister glucagon. Note I'm spending a lot of real estate on insulin ... This is the beast that needs to be tamed in my opinion - both for weight loss and health, again along fat/glucose fuel spectrum I described.

• insulin is a very powerful hormone and it overwhelms other hormones. When present in the blood (and it can take hours to leave the blood), insulin blocks the glucagon hormone which the body can produce to signal fat breakdown among other things. This is why insulin is often called the fat storing hormone. Glucagon is secreted when blood sugar levels are too low to re establish blood sugar levels but it also signals the liver to break down fat

• To wit from Wikipedia (but this is available elsewhere too): Glucagon also decreases fatty acid [generation] in [fat] tissue and the liver, as well as promoting [fat breakdown] in these tissues, which causes them to release fatty acids into circulation where they can be [broken down] to generate energy in tissues such as skeletal muscle when required

• Insulin is not secreted when fat is consumed. This is very important when you think about lying on the glucose-fat spectrum for fuel. Keep this in mind ...

• Too much insulin production for too long can lead cells to get tired of the insulin and become so-called insulin resistant. This is a bad situation. Means the cells can't accept the nutrients which insulin would normally bring them. So what happens is more fat gets stored (because the cells can't accept the glucose) while more insulin gets produced. Taken too far, this leads the pancreas to wear out and .... welcome to Diabetes Type 2, you need insulin shots. Luckily cells can reverse their insulin resistance and become insulin sensitive

• Insulin is increasingly linked - in excess - to heart disease. And glucose to conditions like Alzheimers, Parkinsons and cancer

• Virtually every time you eat, your body spikes insulin which takes time to exit the blood. So therefore eating fewer times a day like you are doing is generally better. Snacking is therefore not so good for this reason

• when insulin spikes and brings blood sugar down fast (sometimes overshooting), it can make you feel dizzy and hungry. This could be happening to you in the afternoons

• So in conclusion, if one wishes to access body fat stores in order to reduce body fat, one should eat foods which cause insulin production to a minimum and do so as few times a day as possible. So this generally means lower carbs and managed proteins ...

A few more things on carbs:

• In contrast to proteins and fats, there is no such thing as an essential carbohydrate. What your body needs in glucose - esp a little in the brain, liver and muscle glycogen - can be synthesised from excess protein and fat. Clever huh?

• Conclusion: most people do not physiologically need carbs to function properly. Think back to the hunter-gatherer days and winter -- not many carbs available ...

• Restoration of glycogen from fat and protein is v v slow however, which is why some high intensity athletes absolutely need carbs given training volume and intensity. Otherwise, their performance tanks

So you see how some 'diet plans' work for some and not others ...?

• The timing of carb consumption can have an impact on what the body does. Immediately after a hard workout for example: used mainly to restore liver and muscle glycogen.

Not so relevant to you ...

• In general carbs are less satiating than proteins and fats

• Fibre is a carb and is good for the body. When looking at carbs, take total carbs and deduct fibre which you can eat as much of as you want and it won't affect insulin.

Enter the concept of net carbs which my guess is you already know about. MFP is not great with tracking net carbs ... Clunky.

Got some things to do. Be back later. Hope this all still makes sense - no questions? Will be useful when you make some decisions later on.

Might need to talk a bit about calories too. These can be more or less important in the weight loss equation depending on your choice of fuel and weight loss goal (and generally comfort level). So calories can be important to track or ... less so ... Never gonna say unimportant though. As I said, it would be nice to bring the calorie consumption up a bit so you eat more and lose more weight than you do now - sounds completely bizarre I know. But it will depend on your end choice ...

Had blood tests, thyroid on the under active side (borderline on 1 test, then just within) not enough to treat, so normal. Not menopausal either which leads me to the conclusion I’m doing something not quite right.

I understand insulin resistance, it’s one of the things that made me want to get on top of my sugar addiction.

What sort of foods are high fibre carbs that wouldn’t cause insulin spikes? Oats/oatcakes?

Net calories I sort of play about with on MFP. I’m aware that calories burnt are hard to judge so use it as a loose guide. For instance I put the days food plan into MFP in the morning to see where I’ll be calorie wise, then if it’s around 1000, that’s fine. Over and I’ll know I’ll need to do much more exercise to compensate.
Meaning my net calories are well below 1000 if my calories consumed goes above 1000 or so.

Got to go and walk dog..will play about with macros on MFP later and see if this sheds any light.

Broccoli has a bit of fibre as do most leafy veg. Tomatoes.

Oats do too but v high net carbs so I tend to avoid. But might be right for you and others depending on choice and where you want to lie on the spectrum. That said, you need to keep objectives in mind. These will restrict your degrees of freedom.

Thing I've noticed with calories is they seem to be more important to cap to lose weight with if you're carb-heavier on the diet - probably because of the outsize influence of insulin. Closer to LCHF and they're not as important (not the main driver), in part because appetite is in check anyway. Some say don't monitor but personally I still want to watch as I want to fuel off of body fat vs dietary fat.

I'll send through the notes on fat shortly.

Fascinating Olivia- I have found that stopping snacking has helped maintain my weight- though I struggle as I prefer little snacky meals; and when I manage it 16:8 does seem to lead to weight loss. (I have to be careful though as can get obsessive!).

I am happy with my weight but would like to reduce my fat %- can I hijack and ask for any tips?!

​*@HorridHoris*

Fats ...

Generally there are four kinds of fat and natural fats found in food are usually a combination of the last 3:

• Trans fats. Anything with the word 'hydrongenated' in it is horrible and should be completely excluded from the diet. Margarine and packaged foods mainly. What's so bad? Humans have added a hydrogen molecule for stability/preservation, but the body can't break trans fats down. Increasingly associated with hear disease. No need to tempt the devil here just exclude completely

• Saturated (animal and plant ) fat. Generally, solid at room temperature. Your body fat is saturated animal fat. These fats - all fats actually - have been demonised and the demonisation may not be entirely unwarranted if in the presence of carbs (more on this below). In the absence of a lot of carbs, these fats appear to be very good for you. I cook a lot with coconut oil or butter for example. I eat a lot of fish which has saturated fat. And I view the body as clever - it would not allow me to burn my own saturated animal fat if it was unhealthy

• Monounsaturated fats. Generally liquid at room temperature. Lower flash point than saturated fat. Olive oil -cold pressed - has a lot of monounsaturated fat.

• Polyunsaturated fat. Processed oils - corn, soybean sunflower - tend to be mainly polyunsatured. These oils are extracted using solvents so I stay away. Also these are high in Omega 6 which while essential is not great for the heart in excess. Some noise about Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratios being too high.

Getting really complicated to track all this stuff and beginning to feel like false precision so I don't pay this a lot of attention. But maybe someone else has done some work here they can share?

• Fats are essential, like protein. You don't eat them you die. Simple.

Fat demonisation

• From what I understand this demonisation can be valid in one instance and completely wrong in another

• It seems true that carbs and fats together are not good for you - there's a potent interplay of hormones at work which make them bad together. So when you hear 'fats are bad' I think the statement is correct ... but ONLY in the context of consuming a lot of carbs. So it's not altogether wrong though perhaps missing the context of carb consumption.

And it may well be that saturated fat is particularly nasty with carbs. I don't know for sure. It doesn't affect me. But I'd recommend doing some research if you're on the more glucose heavy end of the fuel spectrum

• That being said, given most people eat a lot of carbs, I can see where the statement comes from. But I do admit to not having done a ton of research here mainly because I have decided to be on the LCHF end of the glucose / fat energy spectrum so it does not apply to me. For those that want to eat a lot of carbs, pls research this

• On their own - for example in a LCHF dietary combination - the statement 'fats are bad' (ignoring trans and the processed oils) appears false. Studies done recently have shown fats to be good with no worsening of the various cholesterol - a whole other subject - markers and improvements in most cases. Poor cholesterol markers seem attributable to mainly to excess body fat

• The subject of cholesterol is one that's gaining a lot of attention. From what I know there's been a lot of fuss for not much of an issue - the brain is some 25% or so cholesterol and the body produces 80% of what it needs so can't be all bad.

Perhaps the pharma industry has enjoyed a good run selling statins though.

Generally, I don't worry too much about fat types, and I eat a lot of saturated fat. I eat zero trans fats. And stay away from the veg oils because I don't like the idea of solvents, so olive and avocado and coconut only. And the weight flies off ... But that's just me.

Fat metabolism

• Fat - body or dietary; doesn't seem to matter - is broken down into fatty acids and glycerol

• Fatty acids can be further broken down into so-called 3 different ketone bodies. Acetone is disposed of thru urine and lungs. Acetoacetate and Beta-hyrdoxybutyrate are used as fuel by muscles and the brain. Ketones can traverse the blood brain barrier to fuel the brain. Many people say their thinking is clearer on ketones vs glucose.

• Recent research - not conclusive - seems to indicate fuelling the brain off of ketones is helping to ameliorate the plight of Alzheimer sufferers. You can buy exogenous ketones in packets

• Glycerol can be broken down in steps into either glucose (in the case where glucose is not consumed in sufficient quantities) or ATP which I look at as being the energy molecule

• Fat also helps to absorb vitamins

• When the body is in ketosis it is deemed to be burning dietary or body fat for fuel. This is NOT ketoacidosis which is a dangerous condition associated mainly with Diabetes Type 1 where ketones and blood sugar are both high at the same time. This cannot happen in a normal healthy person.

• Fat needs oxygen to metabolise. This is why some endurance aerobic sports athletes like Ironman triathletes have been successful in burning body fat vs carbs for their events ... and they have been breaking records. They can tap into huge steady energy sources which carbs cannot provide. No more hitting the famous wall at mile 20 of a marathon ...

• On the other hand fat is complete rubbish at providing energy for explosive anaerobic activities like sprinting, weightlifting, martial arts. There carbs will always reign supreme as glycogen does not need oxygen to turn into energy

My fat consumption over the past year has been enormous relative to other periods in my life. Lost a ton of weight and feel good.

But LCHF is not for everyone and not without issues. Trade-offs and inconveniences are involved like everything in life.

Nutrients - not long - next then a brief word on calories and you're ready to decide what you want to do.

@Tanaqui

Sure. I can try.

Intermittent fasting is great. I find it hard to sustain if I'm not burning body fat - hungry and grumpy all the time. So I really need to be at the more extreme end of the spectrum in terms of fat burning.

But a friend of mine just powers through the hunger pangs with 16:8 and manages fine. We're all a bit different and maybe I'm a bit of a wimp too. I like being comfortable.

So how can I help?

Mudmagnet, I'm 51 and realised that I absolutely can't eat the way I used to. I've lost 16lb going low carb since this July. As you get older you need to eat fewer calories. Tbh I think calorie guidelines are way out when you take into account sedentary lifestyles, we need a lot less calories than guidelines state. I am also absolutely convinced that antibiotics and hormones in the food chain are contributing to modern obesity levels. I now eat less than 60g of carbs and average 15000 steps per day and feel and look so much better than I did in July. You can't eat the way you did as a teenager when you are middle aged, sadly.

I guess I am wondering if there is a woe that encourages the body to store less fat- actually that doesn't really make sense I suppose! I want to lower my body fat % without particularly losing weight, so muscle building exercise must logically be they way to go (currently hard as recovering from injury, hence being interested in how diet might help).

Have you had a look at rebelfit? Sounds perfect for you.

(I don't work for them BTW) I have just signed up. Their theory on set weight point and metabolic adaptation is interesting.
It sounds like you could do with some strength training too...

@Mudmagnetoftheworld

Mudmagnet? Anyway see below.

I think you can devise your plan now given your objectives. You really don't have a lot of choice I think because of your objectives, unless you relax your timeline. If you do that then you can take some time to test a few tactics.

So where are you going to lie on the fuel spectrum?

Nutrients
No need to say much here. They are key and we all know this. Most should come from foods, especially a ton of veg ... lots and lots of veg and some kinds of fruit. The ones I've had issues with and have read others tend to as well are:
Minerals
Sodium is not usually consumed in sufficient quantities. Need about 5 g a day to avoid lethargy. I take bouillon every other take and add salt to make sure I have enough. The body seems more than capable of expressing excess. The Romans used to eat 25 g a day, supposedly because of salt curing foods. Particularly important in LCHF diet combinations
Potassium also is very important and can lead to lethargy. A few avocadoes does the trick. Supplements are useless and expensive because limited to 99 mg a day and we need over 4g a day
Cal/Mag - supplements can work if you're not getting enough
Vitamins
B complex and especially B5 helps battle lethargy. I forget the reason why B5 is so important but can look it up in case of interest
K2 and D3 are sometimes taken together to help absorption and delivery of calcium.
Calories
This subject tends to solicit a lot of debate. Are calories in and calories out the way to look at things when wanting to lose weight? Is the human body subject to the first law of thermodynamics -ie a closed system?
Well, I think we've partially answered this in looking at how carbs, proteins and fats are processed so the answer is "not entirely."
A calorie is a unit of energy - how much heat is derived from burning (combustion) a substance to raise the temperature of 1 g of water by 1 degree centigrade. I think we know this is not how the body uses the energy from food. There is no combustion by fire going on. And it seems that a calorie from carbs is more prone to storage than a calorie from protein which is possibly only used for AAs and not energy.
So are calories completely irrelevant? I don't think so. But I do think - and this is a hypothesis, though there is a bit of research I can show to support - they are more or less relevant depending on where one lies along the glucose / fat fuel spectrum.
So the more one is reliant on glucose for fuel (the closer to the HCLF end of the fuel spectrum one chooses to be) the more one needs to watch calories - the posts on MN expressing frustration at not losing weight seems to validate this.
My interpretation of this is because there is no other way to ensure that the body is forced to burn fat at some points during the day. You must starve yourself to trigger the hormones that burn fat - ie get rid of the insulin in your blood.
On the other hand, when one is closer to LCHF, the mechanismto burn fat is constantly triggered so access to belly fat energy is a given. No need for hunger. And less need for starvation to engage the hormones that burn fat.
The study I have showed that the HCLF group lost less weight than the LCHF group AND consumed about 300 kcal fewer per day ... There's another study I have which showed a directionally similar result.
Conclusion: calories are a rough guide but not completely useless even if the body does not respond entirely to a counting calories paradigm. They become more relevant the heavier the concentration of carbs in the diet.
I've calculated your BMR (rough guide as we now know, but bear with me). The BMR is the amount of energy your body is supposed to consume if you lie in bed all day and do nothing. It is 1500 kcal.
I normally use this as my daily allowance plus about 300 kcal for lowish activity, so if this were my BMR I would be at 1800.
If I want to lose 1 lb per week the 'deficit' is supposed to run at 500 kcal per day because a pound of fat has around 3,500 kcal ... And this is because I want to promote body fat burning vs dietary fat ..
So back down to 1,300.
For days I exercise, I add back some food. So 300 for 30 min of ergometer. 250 for two hours of gardening. 750 for 90 minutes of martial arts. 300 for heavy weights etc.
In your case, you really should be adding back kcals from dog walking ...
But I caution this approach is probably due to being closer to the LCHF end of the fuel scale. The posts I've read in MN and the logic of glucose / insulin is going to mean this budget should be lower on a food combination that puts you closer to HCLF ...

@Tanaqui

Getting lean is 80 to 90% about diet but of course exercise can contribute if your volume is high.

If you want to maintain weight then heavy lifting to build muscle is the way to go as you lose fat.

To get very lean, in my experience, you will need to do the following. The dietary aspects are paramount so don't relax these. But you can play around with the training.

• Limit net carbs to 30g or less a day. This may mean sacrificing performance but who cares? Your objective is to get lean and build muscle not break records

• Eat a ton of leafy veg for nutrients. A ton. It's a pain but you need a ton. And watch for sodium, potassium and B5 deficiencies if you're lethargic per above.

• Limit protein to the range of 0.8 to 1.5 g per kg of lean muscle mass per day. If you're not elite you'll be below 1.5 g. Feeling like 1.2g? You need to test and figure this out for yourself

• Go for a net calorie deficit (ie add back calories for exercise) of 500 or so per week as I described in the post. Losing 1lb of body fat per week is hard if you're really lean already

• Your fat intake is a plug number which you eat over and above your carb and protein intake until you hit your calorie cap. Let me know if unclear

• do a 16:8 or even better 20:4 intermittent fasting routine where you only eat your meals - but consume all your calories - in this window

• do fasted aerobic exercise when you wake up. - so about 70 to 80% of Vo2 max only - for 40 to 45 minutes three times a week. What I do: Polar heart rate monitor and hit 70 to 80% of my heart rate range.

This burns serious fat AND builds muscle because of the presence of growth hormone while fasted. This is meant to be an easy pace and can be running, ergometer, cycling, stationary bike, ellipticycle. But easy. You need to be able to hold a conversation but heart is still working at a reasonable pace - say 130 bpm with a max heart rate of 160 in my case.

• you can lift fasted too for the same reason - using growth hormone and testosterone. I don't do this but plenty of ripped people do and say it works well.

• when you lift, go heavy and low rep, so 5 reps per set (warmup sets can be up to 10) and it needs to be hard to complete - almost failure. Activate large muscle groups like legs and glutes especially - squats and deadlifts are a must. Lift 2 to 3 x per week and hit all muscle groups

• consider supplementing with creatine to increase workload and build muscle mass more quickly. It's safe; look it up

• do not forget mobility in all this. If you can't move you can't exercise. And lifting - even aerobic exercise - makes you tight. I view this as the absolute necessity in fitness. Yoga. Yoga. Yoga. Find the time.

Questions?

Bloody hell I have done a long reply twice and that wretched mumsnet local ad keeps jumping in and eating my text! Will post in parts, sorry!

First thank you Olivia that is really helpful and chimes with what I know works for me.

In an ideal world I would eat LCHF with occasional 16:8 and lots of exercise!

In the real world I have degenerated discs in my back and a currently injured ankle; however I do as much cardio as I can and Pilates (hope works like yoga!).

With the eating the main problem I have (which sounds really shallow!) and it is that almost all my social life involves eating out- I am already the annoying friend that needs a gluten free menu, so if I add no carbs (and particularly no sugar) I feel like I am putting a downer on the night for others, or being a bit special snowflake- especially as I am a healthy weight.

Currently I do eat carbs like gf oats, lentils, rice, but I might move more to low carb and see if that helps the fat %. Very interested in what you say about protein, as I have never bothered to count or restrict that.

I do eat much more salt than I used to and take magnesium sometimes- I also get cravings for milk quite often (and I don't like milk!) so I wonder if that is for the salts as I eat cheese and yoghurt which I thought would cover calcium.

Anyway thanks again because I found it interesting!

@Tanaqui

Protein in protein in excess turns to glucose. Why they need to be managed if you’re trying to fuel off of fat.

Good luck!