low carb diets -seems like everyone's on one, but I thought dieticians etc generally don't recommend them?

[GhostOfAWasp]

I am not a dietician, but I know a few and they seem to think that all the anti wheat arguments are pseudo science and carbs aren't that bad! Granted, they work, but surely cutting any food group from you diet would have the same effect? I never found it felt very healthy or sustainable long term.

Have I missed something?

Low carbing is not about cutting out a whole food group. It's about altering the proportion of fat/protein/carbs in your diet.

Most people eat a diet which is carbs/protein/fat (in terms of relative size). Low carbing is about eating fat/protein/carbs.

Carbs are encouraged - as long as they come from fresh vegetables and salad.

And absolutely you have missed something. Too much carbohydrate in your diet not only causes you to lay down fat, it is also significantly implicated in:

obsesity
diabetes
hypertension
cancer
Alzheimers

The whole argument that 'fat is bad/carbs are good' comes from some very dodgy science, in particular by an American scientist called Ancel Keys. He did what was supposedly a definitive study linking fat consumption to heart disease. He examined data from 22 different countries. He could make a link in 7 of those countries, so this is what he based his findings on. He ignored the 15 countries where no link could be established.

Read Dr John Briffa or Gary Taubes for more information.

Unfortunately, the American (and UK) science world then all got on the 'fat is bad/carbs are good' bandwagon, followed swiftly by politicians and the media. Anyone who tries to point out that it was bad science, and that the evidence in fact points to carbohydrate being the villain of the piece, was ignored, humiliated and/or pilloried.

And just think about it. We've all been told to eat less fat since the early '80s, and the COMA report. And fat levels/consumption has come down. But during that period, have the levels of obesity and diabetes fallen? No. Quite the opposite. They are on the (massive) increase.

Where to start?

OK. There are quite a few issues at play here. The main one is that most, if not all, dieticians will have been trained within the 'low-fat, high-carb for health' paradigm. In the 60s and 70s some research was published which seemed to show correlations between: eg high fat diets and heart disease. This was not good quality research and in the intervening years it's been pretty much debunked by many who've looked closely at the data. However, the message stuck, and for the last 40 years or so we've been told over and over again that upping wholegrains and limiting fat is the way to go.

This advice totally ignores some important factors. One, that for literally hundreds of years before, it was well-known that the only effective way to lose body fat was to limit carbs. Secondly, from an evolutionary perspective, a diet high in carbs (especially processed, refined carbs) makes no sense. Our bodies have not evolved to deal with the large quantities of starch and sugar that make up our modern diets. Even eating so-called 'good' carbs - the wholegrains etc - doesn't necessarily help and many of us find that our bodies still find them hard to deal with. After all, agriculture is a tiny proportion of our evolutionary history. Processing carbs is the equivalent of a few minutes worth of human evolution. And, funnily enough, since this advice came into being, all we've done is get fatter and sicker...

Of the three macronutrients - fat, protein and carbs - only fat and protein are essential for life and health. There is no such thing as an essential carbohydrate. The idea that the body 'needs carbs for energy' for example, isn't true. Even Novak Djokovich is cutting carbs these days . The body can get all its energy requirements from converting fats and proteins and whole races have survived for thousands of years without a single carb - the Inuit managed perfectly well on fat and protein, no carbs at all. But introduce them to sugar and flour and hey presto, heart disease, stroke, diabetes...

It's not that carbs are 'evil' per se. There are carbs in veg (and fruit, although obviously there's a lot of sugar there too). I eat carbs. I just eat far, far fewer of them than I did before, and in pure, unprocessed forms. Eating low-carb doesn't mean meat and cheese for every meal. I eat a ton more veg now than I ever did when I was having a so-called 'healthy' diet.

The fact is, that most of us eat processed, refined carbohydrates in quantities that are way too much for our bodies to handle. Carbs destabilise your blood sugar, creating hunger and cravings that lead to more carb intake. It's a vicious circle. When you cut the level of carbs, you stabilise your blood sugar, you don't crave foods, you don't get hungry, you don't want sugar. So it's totally healthy, and totally sustainable.

More and more, people are turning to low-carb because they see that low-fat, high-carb simply doesn't work. But, it's hard to change the prevailing view. At the moment, the dieticians you know will probably be prescribing high-carb diets for diabetics - for people who can't control their blood glucose and insulin response. How does that make sense? What's made them sick will also cure them? I don't think so.

As more evidence comes out about the superiority of low-carb eating, maybe we'll start thinking a little more sensibly about the whole thing...

Thanks BIWI. I'll def do more research into it, but as a vegetarian I really don't see how it can be done healthily- no pulses? And what abou countries where the staple diet is rice with protein (beans, pulses etc) with seemingly no ill effects?

GhostOfAWasp (great name btw) - those traditional diets are usually also very low in other refined foods and sugars, and higher in things like veg, fish etc. As BIWI says, Briffa and Taubes are brilliant reads for the science behind LC.

It is harder to low-carb as a veggie, but not impossible. I think Rose Elliot has written a recipe book on veggie low-carbing. Worth a look?

As a gallstone sufferer, any time I've ever deliberately or inadvertently eaten a meal without carbs (even one including vegetables), I've subsequently suffered an attack - no joke as they last several hours and effectively write off the next day due to exhaustion. And, actually, for whatever reason, I hardly ever have attacks these days - except when I haven't had the 'ballast' of carbs in whatever I've eaten.

This may be particular to me alone, or it may indicate that a low carb diet is unhealthy. Needless to say, I won't be trying it again.

And I'm not convinced anyone following the plan maintains the weight loss in the long term.

Ghost, you know my view on it ;-) three stone down and that was over Christmas too.

I have pcos and by removing sugar, processed food and starchy carbs I have got on top of it for tbe first time in ten years. I eat carbs in vegetables and berries, but don't have any rice, bread, pasta. To me they are pointless food group - they don't bring any extra vitamins or minerals that I don't get in my diet and the sugars in them reek havoc with my blood sugar. I will never go back. I started in October and its now my way of life. I get all my neccesary iron, vitamins and calcium in my diet and my fat levels and bmi are almost healthy - four pounds off a bmi of 25 in first time in a decade. I'm never hungry and my body is responding to it.

Look at the you tube podcasts of "skinny on obesity". What do the atkins and japanese diet have in common - they both work and both eliminate fructose i.e. its the elimination of sugar that is the key not the elimination of wholegrain pasta and rice.

I know nothing about gallstones, Shotgun, other than it is horribly painful to suffer from them. It may or may not be the case that carbs help - but I really don't know enough about that to take a view.

However, I'm interested that you would think that weight loss from low carbing is unsustainable. On what basis do you think this?

I only started a low carb diet on Thursday, so not really able to talk about the unsustainableness (is that a word?) of the weight loss.

However having done weightwatchers, slimming world, scottish slimmers and loads low calorie diets I can tell you that the weight loss on ALL of them unsustainable if you don't stick to it.

As for low carb diet - i had boiled eggs in a cup with lashing of butter for breakfast. It was bloody delicious. Compare that to my slimming world breakfast of two weetabix with banana and skim milk, I can tell you what I'd rather eat.

And on the wheat thing, to just single that out, when I have cut it out for a few days (and not changed anything else about how I eat), I feel better. My food cravings seem to reduce, and various aches and pains that I thought were inevitable signs of middle age seem to disappear.
But. I find it very hard to stay off it. I am sure that for me it's addictive in some way because I feel hungrier when it's in my diet. Even potatoes don't seem to have the same effect on me as wheat does.

When I have done low carb, only for a few days at a time, I definitely feel more satisfied after a meal, and for longer.
I am seriously considering giving it another try.

Because if wheat and other grains were so important for health man would have died out in Paleolithic times. We have only eaten grains in relatively recent 9in terms of evolution) times. We have only eaten refined grains (white flour, sugar) in v v recent times.

But yes the message fat is bad carbs are good has been broadcast for a while and is totally mainstream - including the education of nutritionalists.

Read John Briffa, he explains better than any of us can.

I think carbs are a mood stabiliser for me, whenever I cut them down I turn into a bit of a homicidal/suicidal wreck after about a week.

Our bodies, and the way they absorb food have not changed much over the milennia - but what HAS is the food that we eat.

Highly refined carbs, 'unnatural' fats and white sugar are killing us all slowly, and are very addictive.

I'm on an eating plan called Zest 4 Life which allows us to eat everything we want, but limits carbs to very whole wheat versions or oats or not much carbs at all.

We eat tons of fruit and veg, fish esp. oily, meat, dairy and occasionally a bit of plain chocolate, too! We eat 3 meals and 2 snacks a day.

Its all to do with keeping the blood sugars level which means you don't crave food in the first place.

www.amazon.co.uk/The-Low-GL-Diet-Made-Easy/dp/0749927143/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1337602609&sr=1-8

Its interesting to see that the press are picking up on the "sugar is bad for you" theme. I've read 2 articles recently about it

Alameda - most people who significantly reduce their carb intake find that they feel a bit crap in the first few days, as the body adjusts to a lack of sugar. It's effectively a withdrawal process.

After this time, most people report a stabilisation in their mood as they no longer experience the highs and lows of wayward blood glucose levels. But you have to push through the first few days to get there.

I thought for a long time that Toblerone and mashed potato made me happy. They didn't

Biwi, my theory on long term sustainability is based on the people I've known who've low-carbed, so you've got me there.

toblerone and mash does indeed sound like a recipe for yuckiness all round

if you cook pasta (and rice) properly I think you do get that sort of slower release thing, similar to the wholegrain versions but without the IBS like problems - although this could just be me of course. I don't like potatoes, it's almost as quick to make your own pasta as to peel loads of spuds and it cooks quicker

I do think scary low fat alternatives to real food and artificial sweeteners have more to answer for than the war on carbs thing

Shotgun - the reason that gallstones form in the first place is from eating a low fat diet. The gallbladder produces bile which is used to digest fat, if you eat very little fat then the bile sits there and can form gallstones. If you keep eating a low fat diet then the gallstones will just sit there getting worse which normally results in the gallbladder eventually having to be removed. If you eat a high fat meal once a gallstone has formed then it gets flushed out which is what causes the pain - this is a good thing though. If you can get past the initial pain of switching to a higher fat diet your gallbladder problems will disappear completely.

I would not adopt a low carb diet, as I am hypoglycemic (ie I actually get such low blood sugar I get dizzy, headachy and I have even fainted a few times. always carry some crackers in my bag now).

Although I would cut out sugar. And choose brown bread instead of white.

For me, keeping an eye on GI makes sense. But not everyone is like me.

I am still with the old fashioned "diet" view of "everything in moderation", no starvation or diets, no gorging or stuffing my face. Just eating nice food when I feel hungry. I am not fat, but not skinny either. Somewhere boring in the middle, so I guess no amazing weight loss stories from me

low carb is just a fad that will pass. I am sure it works. But all people I know who do it have that bad breath that is not exactly indicative of good health, is it? By all means, cut out donuts, cut out biscuits and sweets. But don't tell me brown bread is bad for you. Or even potatoes.

Hi All, I have been low carbing for 5 weeks now and feel better than I have in years
I was at a stand still weight wise and have been gradually loosing for 3 years, I have lost 12lbs in 5 weeks, my skin is better, I eat 3 meals a day, I have loads of energy(even when I'm at the gym, which is roughly 5 times a week). My DH has commented that I seem happier also.
I do not look at it as a diet, but a way of eating, its fab.

Chandon - your hypoglycemia is caused by eating carbohydrates. When you eat carbs your blood sugar rockets which causes the release of insulin which does such a good job of removing the excess glucose from the blood that you end up with low blood sugar three hours later. If you remove the carbohydrate from your diet then you remove the need for insulin and your body will be able to keep your blood sugar at a stable, healthy level. A healthy level of blood sugar is only about a teaspoon in all of your blood - the body is perfectly capable of maintaining that level by breaking amino acids into glucose.

"but don't tell me brown bread is bad for you"

I read "wheat belly" and he (the author) I would say exactly that! Brown bread is made from genetically modified dwarf wheat, which is almost as addictive and as high GI as the white stuff.

Potatoes though why would they be bad for you? (unless you ate a lot of them or where trying to lose weight as they raise insulin.... once at target potatoes would be a great natural source of carbs.)

cutting out REFINED carbs including brown or white bread and refined sugars isn't cutting out a whole food group

I don't eat refined carbs, don't eat bread or pasta or refined sugars or sweetners. But I eat carbs.

You don't need bread and pasta and crackers and biscuits, cutting them out is NOT cutting out a food group

Dietitians don't like NO carb diets, which is sensible.
LOW carb diets, reducing refined carbs and so on, go against their general food pyramid principles - but since these are a bit shit anyway, I wouldn't worry. LOW carbing, if it involves getting rid of large amounts of processed and refined grains, is a good idea. Higher protein ratios, but also increased fruit and veg (to maintain pH balance in the body) is far better for you than high refined carbs.

My mother was a type II diabetic - her diet sheet from the dietitian suggested far too many carbs, the sort of diet that a Type I (insulin-dependent) diabetic would need to counter their insulin injections. She wasn't the only one given that shonky advice, I'm sure - I met at least 2 other Type II diabetics with the same experience and I'm sure there would be more!

hasn't the traditional pyramid been disproved by proper research, and amended ones released, but most dieticians still use the crappy old one, I still see their leaflets around work "less bolognaise, more pasta" - it's bollocks!

monkey, exactly.
www.csiro.au/Outcomes/Health-and-Wellbeing/Prevention/Total-Wellbeing-Diet/Science-behind-the-diet.aspx - this is from the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation of Australia (some kind of Govt approved body) - their Total Wellbeing diet advocates higher protein ratios, at the expense of carbs.