If you don't follow latest research or guidelines wrt baby feeding (in particular weaning)

[hunkermunker]

Can I ask why?

Obviously all babies are individuals, yada yada - and guidelines are just that.

But what happens to make you disregard the up-to-date stuff?

(This is following on from a posting on another thread - but I wanted to make it a less personal, wider thread, rather than it be construed as an attack on one person - because I think the process of how we make decisions regarding our children is interesting).

Agree, lulumama.

AFAIK no-one has ever studied this, but presumably starting off very slowly with solids gives the gut more time to adjust and mature.

Another reason why BLW makes sense - they won't get much food down at the beginning, just little bits here and there.

In answer to OP;

I had two older DCs being jealous and demanding, a rapidly expanding business but no outside help and DS had been crying for 2 days. I was very stressed, and simply did not have time to sit and feed for hours.

He showed interest in a banana, so I mashed one and gave it to him. He loved it, and was more contented than he had been for days. He was 17 weeks. He was on solid food and the crying stopped.

I wish I had been able to hold out for longer, I know I "shouldn't" have given solids before 6 months and I'm vaguely aware of the reasons why. I feel a bit guilty, in the same way I feel a bit guilty that they all watch too much TV and...oh, untold other things, but TBH I don't think about it a great deal.

can i ask What actually happens to a child who is weened before 6 months ?? or in the old guidlines 4 months /

my dd was put on baby rice at 12 weeks and ds now 13 weeks is on baby rice 1's a day

Ds had severe reflux. He just would not gain weight, was severely ftt and screamed constantly in pain. We tried topping him up him on formula which went very badly (he had a milk allergy). I was bfing him non-stop. Could not get anything out of the docs round here other than 'you don't have enough milk, give him formula'.

A friend who is a paed (sadly abroad) and thought he had reflux suggested mixing some baby rice with his formula at 12 weeks to try and help it stay down. We did, and it helped a bit but not enough.

When he was 17 weeks we went to see a pediatric gastroenterologist. Ds was put on meds and the pge gave us a weaning routine to introduce solids immediately. He said that reflux kids who are ftt make a much better recovery when on solids. He was totally pro-bf and supportive of my continuing bf for as long as I was willing to.

So that's what we did. Ds has gone fron being well off the bottom of the charts to being near the top (consistent with his height).

SHEENA, a babies gut is not physically ready for solids until between 17-26 weeks (depending on the child, with no accurate way to tell which children are ready sooner)

Before 17 weeks neither their kidneys nor their guts are ready to digest solid food, and introducing them to it before this time has been linked to stomach/kidney/indigestion problems later in life, also to allergies.

Arghh - I wrote a really long post on why people ignore any health advice, not just wrt weaning and lost the lot when I tried to post!

Briefly, why to people still smoke, drink and eat the wrong food even when they know they shouldn't? What is it about the advice and the evidence that isn't getting through? I think if you could understand advice taking behaviour in general you could gain something from applying it to specific examples like weaning.

Why do some campaigns on the other hand, work really well. The campaign to reduce cot death for example has been very successful. Jamie Oliver's implementation of healthier school meals is another one that has done well.

It strikes me in both cases that the advice is very clear and simple. People aren't required to do much. Cot death is vastly reduced by keeping babies cool and letting them sleep on their back. Getting children to have healthier lunches is, for the parents, a matter of sending them to school with the dinner money. You know the right things to do and they are easy to achieve.

Weaning, on the other hand, isn't that easy. I think it is one of the hardest things to think about as a mother. Partly because the advice is not clear and readily available as evidenced by all those HV who ar still pushing 4 mths. Partly it is because babies can't speak up for themselves so we project our feelings about food onto them. We assume because we are eating that a baby will want to eat too.

Also because there are, evidently so few babies being weaned late there isn't the new evidence that can say 5 yrs ago X% of children suffer from allergies and now that has reduced to Y% in babies who are weaned after 6mths (although I would think it is perfectly valid to compare the 1% with a control group of early weaners of a similar size - I wonder why it hasn't been done).

Anwyay, all of us late weaners on MN are evidently a bunch of weirdie freaks for bucking the trend.

Sorry ... still rambling and long but I am studying psychology - what makes people tick is very interesting to me.

I've lost track of the mothers and HVs I've heard about who were told that the limit was increased to 6 months "because of the developing world" and that in developed countries 4 months is fine. I try and spank it down whenever I hear it - but it's quite prevalent to be fair - especially amongst health professionals.

Neicie, welliemum's explained, I hope, why I wasn't confused

The evidence we have points to later weaning being less likely to be associated with increased risk of allergy and intolerance - as I said. But the evidence does not include randomised controlled trials, and will never do so (for the reasons wellie says). However, we do have some studies, not all of them in the UK because not everywhere is so mad keen on early weaning as we are here, and we have some knowledge of infant gut development, and the properties of breastmilk, and how allergy and intolerance actually work. It's this evidence that points to later weaning being safer from the point of view of allergy.

But of course tori will throw all that out the window by reminding us that she herself was weaned before four months and is fine (point 7 on her list). So I really don't know why we bother looking at research - we should just ask tori what her opinion is

Neicie - "Jamie Oliver's implementation of healthier school meals is another one that has done well."

Not true - it has had a huge amount of publicity, but as for changing things, rather less success. It has been massively difficult to change - some schools are locked into PFI contracts which prevent them from changing, some find healthier meals turn kids off school meals and they are sent with a junk packed lunch instead...all sorts of challenges.

I think the impact will be positive over time, though, as schools which have been determined to educate and change and have stuck with it are making a difference.

But ask any school governor - it is not easy.

(remember the schools where the mums brought pies and chips and handed them through the railings at lunchtime because the kids said they hated the new 'healthy' school lunch?)

Tiktok, I didn't think for one minute that you were confused - I know you know what you are talking about.

I just meant that it sounds confusing to us lesser mortals who haven't studied the biology in detail.

Studying any kind of development in babies is ethically challenging, I understand that. But there are ways around this - I wouldn't suggest that you ask parents before hand to do the weaning in different ways based on the researchers requirements but to look after they have made their decisions, at the results of their choices. I am surprised that it hasn't been done tbh, even if the sample sizes are relatively small at this stage.

I didn't say the Jamie Oliver thing was easy for the schools, but as a parenting choice, which is what we are talking about, it is.

I would also argue that it has been more successful than the guidelines on late weaning. I suspect the take-up in schools has been a lot higher than 1%.

well JO school meals are a great success in our kids school. even their 'friday funday' has homemade pizza and oven chips instead of the usual stuff. most things i belvie are cooked onsite (very fortunate as the school has a kitchen) and the kids eat well.

Anyway regarding weaning...

it just makes sense doesnt it, to wait until six months or longer if the case may be.

cant wait to skip that whole purree stage with dc#4.

in answer to the op, i weaned at 17 wks. ds went from feeding 7 times a day to feeding over 9 times, and was waking up hourly overnight. he bf v well, but kept vomiting, possibly a combination of reflux and drinking more than he could fit in. poor mite remained hungry. my supply was v good (he would have a 8oz bottle of expressed milk in the eve).

on advice from a v supportive health visitor i started weaning at 17 weeks, while continuing to bf. despite having a supportive dh and a lovely hv, i think in hindsight the lack of sleep and rest was really getting to me although that's not something i acknowleged at the time.

out of curiosity, what would you have suggested tiktok, hunker and those lovely ladies in the know?

I think there is a lot of pressure to wean before 6 months as it is seen as some sort of milestone, i.e. the sooner your baby can swallow slop off a spoon, the more 'advanced' he/she is. "What a clever girl, eating baby rice!"

Because it's a milestone that the mother can control (unlike crawling/talking/walking/sleeping through etc etc) it must be tempting to wean early for extra Good Mummy points at the mum&baby group...

EF, you get the "Oh, well, mine was such a hungry baby, so I had to give him steak and chips at 3 weeks old" sort of rolled-eye comments a lot at M&B groups if you wean later.

that's an interesting point of view ExtraFancy. And probably true.

Here's an overview of the poor progress of the healthy school meals campaign.

And Neicie, I think it can be difficult for parents to follow healthy eating guidance for their kids - all sorts of reasons, cultural, economic, behavioural. It should be easy as anything not to wean early, because the child is too young to have a real choice in the matter, but it doesn't happen that way.

Sometimes, behavioural and developmental changes in the baby are interpreted as signs of hunger, for instance.

MissO, you say " in answer to the op, i weaned at 17 wks. ds went from feeding 7 times a day to feeding over 9 times, and was waking up hourly overnight. he bf v well, but kept vomiting, possibly a combination of reflux and drinking more than he could fit in. poor mite remained hungry. my supply was v good (he would have a 8oz bottle of expressed milk in the eve)."

I'd have thought of many other strategies than weaning early - first off, you probably had overstim'd your supply, with the expressing on top of the hourly feeding, for instance (8 oz ebm?? That's a lot of expressing on top of the freq feeding). You could have used some tips to dampen down your production - that would have prob led to less vomiting and less apparent hunger.

?Your personal view has as much validity as a personal view saying the moon is made of green cheese?

Lol that?s brilliant! I love the whole post.

Aha, home now! Like the other replies, but here is my experience.

1. By 6mths babies can forcibly push food away which people may construe as them not liking it- not the case, its just something different.

You should ask on Aitch?s site if people had this problem, I never

1. With baby led weaning they get most of it on the floor instead of getting the calories from all the food iyswim.

?Food?s for fun until they?re one?! All the calories they need are available in milk.

1. I don't see the logic in increasing milk feeds to the extent that the baby spends more time eating than learning to play and do other things.

It was never a problem. My daughter loves to play and is very sociable. When other people are around Mummy doesn?t get a look in!

1. They learn to eat with fingers but then refuse to eat with a spoon because they have never had one put in their mouth (ok maybe for yoghurt, but not well practiced). This happened to a colleague who has looked after 2 babies weaned this way and both had trouble eating with spoons later.

Mothers who have BLW?ed subsequent children report the opposite. Tink was using cutlery well before her birthday when a lot of people I know are still doing puree. She now eats with a knife and fork and is quite capable of using the full size versions when there aren?t children?s ones available.

1. Teaching children to graze all day with finger food is fine until they get to school. Then their stomachs can't hold much but they have set eating times and can't get enough calories in within these set times.

Who teaches their kids to graze? Tink was eating with us, three meals a day from 7 months, self feeding exactly what we ate (we?re a no salt household). She had/has snacks during the day for two reasons: a. she was premature and very small so she needs the extra and b. because I snack during the day!

1. Most childcare facilities would struggle to supervise all the babies eating this way, so if you want to go back to work it will make life harder for the child in the long run. They have set times for feeding as well.

On the contrary, everyone who has looked after Tink has said how nice it was that they didn?t have to do anything past giving food to her. She will happily eat whenever food is put in front of her, so she will fit in with anyone?s routine.

1. From personal experience I have suffered no harm from being weaned far earlier than 4mths.

No comment, it?s not relevant.

1. There appears to be far more intollerences to food/allergies to food in children now than in previous generations- my personal view is that its because they are exposed to food later.

Erm? no, food has only started to be introduced later more recently. Look around the world, look at our own history, weaning at six months is classed as early!

1. Taste doesn't develop properly until around 6mths, so by weaning at 4mths its more likely texture they don't like so you keep trying it.

There was me believing my midwives who said that babies can taste in the womb! My body is going to an awful lot of effort to flavour my milk if she couldn?t taste before she was six months old!

10. I would consider it less of a choking hazard to have my baby used to swallowing small lumps, before biting larger amounts off and swallowing it by mistake. (I almost choked as a 7yo with the same scenario)

Whole complicated process, I?ll try to KISS. Tongue thrust reflex keeps anything to big to be swallowed at the front of the mouth, if they manage then the gag reflex is triggered in the mouth of a baby, offending piece is pushed into the remit of the tongue and then out the mouth. Possibly as a 7 year old your body hadn?t learnt this process, but then as an adult I?ve choked on things!

11. If you give finger foods at first and they throw it, then they end up not trying it, how do you establish their likes and dislikes.

Tink was never really a thrower; she would polish off anything put in front of her. She did eat on a mat that was kept clean and anything that could be was picked up and put back on her plate. This is also an important part of development and an eyesight test.

12. Children will eat favourite things first and could become full up before they try everything when they have graduated onto mixed meals/ variety on one plate. By blending several veg and meat they get all nutrients required instead of selected ones.

It?s been proven that children will balance their diet if given the opportunity. With Tink she would eat everything in front of her. She would have a chop in one hand and mash in the other. When she came across tomatoes, she pulled a face and politely handed it back, otherwise everything was eaten. She will even happily eat curry, Chinese, pasta, pizza?

"Because it's a milestone that the mother can control (unlike crawling/talking/walking/sleeping through etc etc) it must be tempting to wean early for extra Good Mummy points at the mum&baby group..." soooooo true.

DS1 was born 6 weeks before my friends DD and was breastfed, she fed her DD formula (not slagging her choice but it was the beginning of the end for her iyswim), within weeks the poor little mite was on hungry baby milk, friend kept complaining of apparent hunger, i.e crying after milk.

She then decided baby must be ready for weaning, started at about 8-10weeks (I think, this was a few years ago now) with baby rice, got more and more so by the time I was offering bits and pieces to DS1 her DD was on three meals a day plus snacks. Her DD continued to cry, bellyache anyone?

We would go to the baby clinic, DS would weigh more than her DD, and she would make a point of telling everyone (except the HV's) how although my baby weighed more her baby was eating solids, lots of them, because she was just soooo hungry as if it were a competition, and although DS1 was ahead in weight (to be expected, he was larger at birth and was 6 weeks older so a non-issue IMO) her wonderfully forward DD was beating him in the food stakes

Also agree with neicies(?) point about people being happier to do things 'easy', if your child is going through a growth spurt (which, IMO, is what people often mistake for ready-to-wean) then it's tiring, often you get all sorts of mis-information and then hear that some babies are ready-to-wean at 17 weeks I'd imagine it is all too easy to ignore the info about 26weeks and decide your instinct(inability to think clearly through tiredness maybe?) is right and start weaning.

Agreed VS.

It does annoy me when people start solids because baby is hunry, then need to add more because it's being wolfed down and then add hungry baby milk because they're still hungry! Yet they think it justifies the decision to add solids and don't consider it could be because the stuff they are putting in their LO's tummy could be sand (as Gill Rapley put it) and they are so hungry because their tummy doesn't have the space to hold the vital milk they need.

another vote for earl(ier) weaning helping with reflux here. Little and often stopped working when DS started his 4 month growth spurt.