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Tutoring

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Original poster

Give up on 11 plus?

26 replies

Moonpie07 · 28/07/2017 15:18

My DS has just sat a mock examination for 11 plus. Had results today and they're not great. He's at a pretty good state primary. His teacher was very encouraging about him doing test. His recent report put him at exceeding (greater depth) in all aspects of maths and English although we always knew his English was much stronger than his maths.
Anyway results are 86% in English but only 34% in maths against average of 71%.
He does have a tutor who has concentrated on maths but don't know what to do now. Give up on idea or try to get him somewhere near for exam in two months? When I've looked, he's left lots of answers out that I think he could do quite easily and got some wrong that I think he will know correct answer to when he looks again. Don't want to force him to do anything he won't enjoy but seems shame when his English is so strong. Do I just accept though that whilst he can do much better than this, having scored high 90s in practice papers in English and 80% in maths, looks like he just can't do it in exam situation. Any advice? He's 10 btw. Going in year Y6.

OP posts:

SerfTerf · 28/07/2017 15:19

What type of area are you in and what are your other options?

CauliflowerSqueeze · 28/07/2017 15:19

Maybe it was just a bad paper. If he's that good give him another chance to practise.

Original poster

Moonpie07 · 28/07/2017 15:24

Thanks for quick responses. Our local comps are not great. Nearest requires improvement. Perhaps I am being bit negative but disappointed when two tutors and his class teacher have been so encouraging. He has sailed through his primary. Problem is he's very easily discouraged about maths and gives up too easily so if I try to say we really need to work hard on this I suspect he'll be pretty demotivated.

OP posts:

EyeoftheStorm · 28/07/2017 15:28

Ds1 did a mock exam for the 11+ and his scores were so bad I never told him what he got as it would have knocked his confidence. He went on to get high scores in 11+ - not enough for the top grammar school in our area but definitely enough for very sought after selective independents.

Was it a lock that had a tutoring service attached to it?

EyeoftheStorm · 28/07/2017 15:29

Mock not lock!

EyeoftheStorm · 28/07/2017 15:30

Also at state school and not top of his class. I would focus on maths in the summer holidays and give him a go (our mantra for ds1)

Panicmode1 · 28/07/2017 15:34

What did the tutor say? Is it a particularly hard paper? Like a pp one of my children did a horrendous maths test in the summer school, two weeks before the actual exam, having flown up to that point and I panicked that we were doing the wrong thing etc but the tutor said it was a particularly hard paper and % scores had been down across the cohort they tested. FWIW they got into a superselective, as did their sibling....so it could just be that it was a bad day/bad paper and that actually in the real thing, if he's been given the tools, he'll ace it on the day.

The bigger question to ask though is, if he passes and gets in, will he enjoy it and be able to keep up. They move fast in the grammars, particularly in maths and they need to be capable in lessons, not just able to pass a test.

Marv1nGay3 · 28/07/2017 15:37

How does your son feel about what happened in the test? If he is ok with carrying on with the tutoring then you don't really have that much to lose by doing the 11+ anyway but at the same time try to come up with a good plan B for if it doesn't work out? It makes no difference on the secondary application form if you have put the grammar first. The other schools don't know the order.
Perhaps he could also try for an academic scholarship for an indie too? One of my DD's friends last year didn't get into a grammar but got an academic scholarship to a local private school.

Original poster

Moonpie07 · 28/07/2017 15:38

Thanks Eye. Think I will follow your lead and not tell him the score. He is very used to praise, being "top of class" at school and think this would completely knock his confidence. The mock was at a tutor centre and not one we've used (not that local). Paper doesn't seem any harder than ones we've looked at.
When he did the test, one little boy got warned for talking. According to DS he was trying to out psych others on advice of his parents, asking them questions apparently to "know your enemy"! Did wonder what I was putting poor DS into...

OP posts:

EyeoftheStorm · 28/07/2017 15:40

What a crazy world we live in!

Original poster

Moonpie07 · 28/07/2017 15:42

Panicmode1 thanks. I think this is what is bothering me deep down. Have always been of view that if they have to be coached intensively they'll not cut it in an academic grammar. Thinking that psychologically better for him to be top of class at decent comp than bottom of grammar.

OP posts:

ParadiseCity · 28/07/2017 15:47

My eldest was borderline for grammar and ended up there. He hasn't found it too difficult and the rest of the kids are 'normal rather than genius boffin types. So I wouldn't worry about the 'scraping through then struggling' scenario. Once they are in school the school obvs want them doing well and are supportive iyswim.

I do hate the whole system though. I have a DD about to start Y6 so at the same stage as OP with her.

ParadiseCity · 28/07/2017 15:48

(Though all schools are different of course)

user1493630944 · 28/07/2017 15:51

No real advice to give as you obviously know your DS best.
The only thing I would say is that I grew up in the era when everyone sat the 11+. Everyone I know who 'failed' has never forgotten it, or truly got over that feeling of failure, even people who have succeeded later. These people include former colleagues and family members. Even people who I would never have known had 'failed' seem to feel an obligation to admit it with a sense of shame. It is a terrible indictment of our education system that people can feel labelled as failures at the age of 11. It is just something to bear in mind when making a decision for your DS.

Panicmode1 · 28/07/2017 15:58

It sounds like taking the test is the right thing for him if the school are supporting him and if he wants to do it ....I also wouldn't tell him the score - perhaps lots of praise for the answers he did get right but say it looks as though x or y may need a bit more time on it so the overwhelming message is positive.

My third is a year off taking it (and I have another in another two years!) and so I know how hard it is to a)decide whether to 'torture' them (and you) by putting them forward and b) working out the best way to keep them positive and motivated without putting the fear of god into them or pressurising them too much.

"Do the best you can" is my mantra - if they themselves want to take the test and want to put the effort in (and if you and the school think they are capable) then that's 50% of the battle. Good luck to your DS - and yes, it's a horrible system (albeit one in which my very academic older children are thriving and loving school, in a way they didn't at primary.)

Rolypoly · 28/07/2017 15:59

Exam technique can count for a lot. If your son was skipping harder questions in order to concentrate on ones with which he was more comfortable or spending too long on some questions leaving himself no time for questions he could have answered easily it could have a big impact on his score. Exam technique is a skill to be learned like any other and his tutors should be addressing this. I'd be guided by your son. If you discuss it with him and think he can deal with potentially getting a lower score in the exam and not getting in to his school of choice then go for it.

iklboo · 28/07/2017 16:00

Silly question but did he answer all the questions? DS turned over two pages by accident on his mock.

Or perhaps 'slipped' the answers - e.g. put answer for Q2 in Q1 space etc? DS's friend did that in his mock.

They're both off to grammar school in September.

Brighteyes27 · 28/07/2017 16:06

If he wants to persist with it I would definitely give it another go. You can achieve a lot in a month. DS isn't the best at English mainly because of his messy handwriting but he wanted to go to GS we didn't push. Fortunately the 11 plus test he took was purely in maths, verbal reasoning and non verbal reasoning. He is going back into year 9. Still has messy handwriting but doing above average in most subjects.

Original poster

Moonpie07 · 28/07/2017 16:17

Thanks everyone. Have decided to definitely not tell him the score. If I do, I know he'll want to give up. Looking again, he's actually got a reasonable percentage of what he's done right in maths. Just hasn't answered enough questions...think we need to concentrate on speed and technique. Bit annoyed that tutor hasn't done more work on this - know they haven't as asked DS.

OP posts:

TheFlyingFauxPas · 28/07/2017 16:24

A lot is technique. Is your ds's tutor an 11+ tutor or academic only?? An 11+ tutor would improve technique, even the basic this is against the clock get your arse into gear as often this is the first time kids work with a time limit and that needs practice.

Every point counts. Every second counts. If you see something you know will take a while, Vivian has 2 camels while Sandra only has a rabbit but wears glasses make a guess there and then (as you may not have time to come back) but make a mark to return if time. Similarly. Whip through where you can. Answer the easy stuff first. Enjoy it!! And check check check check check check check. You have no 'spare time' Astonishing how grades soar with a few tools to tackle the test. He's already 3/4 of the way there by being good at maths. Just need the techniques usually unfamiliar and not taught in schools.

TheFlyingFauxPas · 28/07/2017 16:28

Ooh. Massive cross post!

BooksandSunandGandT · 04/09/2017 01:29

OP, sounds like you have a plan :-)

Marv1nGay3 - a word of caution: this is not how school admissions work (at least, not in my area). Schools DO know in which order of preference you have made the applications but, more importantly, the LA allocates places in order of preference and so a child who puts 1-grammar school 2-outstnading oversubscribed local school 3-good local school is in for a very tough time. If they don't get into the grammar, then they are very unlikely to get into choice 2 as that school will likely have allocated all of its places to children who put it as first preference (with regard to LA/school-specific admissions criteria). And if they then are passed to their 3rd choice and that is full with children who ranked it 1st or 2nd choice, then they could be allocated a place at any state school in the authority with places. With possibility to appeal, of course, but making poor choices on the form are not grounds for overturning a decision. It's not like UCAS where your application is sent to all of your chosen unis and considered by them, for state schools it is pretty much all automated and done in order of preference according to the form.

It's not necessarily a great system, but one thing that reduces the uncertainty a bit is that (here, at least) grammars give you an idea of whether you are likely to be offered a place based on exam results, before applications are made.

Marv1nGay3 · 04/09/2017 06:25

It must be different in different areas then Books as we were told this information at our local council secondary school admissions evening. the schools are not told your order of preference. Anyway my DD is starting secondary on Weds so it is not a problem for us at this stage.

Ollycat · 04/09/2017 06:40

BooksandSunandGandT really sorry but this is not the case - all uk state schools have to allocate by the equal preference system.

Your local authority will look at your CAF and allocate you the highest placed school you qualify for.

BooksandSunandGandT · 04/09/2017 22:36

Marv1nGay3 Ollycat Apologies, some of my info is out of date it seems . I've done a quick refresher this evening! The current system is slightly better in terms of not causing you to miss out on a place simply because you ranked it third (this is actually a big deal as deciding the correct order caused no end of headaches), but there is still the possibility for parents to come unstuck, especially in areas which have grammars. While the LA will allocate you the highest placed school for which you qualify, if you put grammar and 2 popular schools for your choices and then don't get into the grammar and aren't high up enough in the lists for the others, then you will be allocated a place at any school in the LA that has a space. The key is to have at least 1 school on the list which your child is realistically likely to get into (a hard thing to consider, admittedly, when DC + family have their hearts set on a particular school). Pleased for your DD, Marv1n - and good luck for Weds!

Thanks for prodding me to update my knowledge. Now if only all parents would / could attend LA info evenings and make good choices...

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