Rubbish holiday guest

[Purtyburty]

I would like some perspective on a holiday I had in France a couple of weeks ago. DH and I are really upset and disappointed with how this holiday went down and I am struggling moving forward with some family relationships. A family group spent a week in a holiday home and my brother’s family were a part of it. He has two children. An 8 year old girl and 4 year old boy. We have a 5 year old DS and a 2 year old DD. From the first day the 4 year old boy targeted my DD. We bought a her a couple of new toys for the holiday including pool toys. Everything she touched or held was immediately snatched from her. She would cry about this but we asked politely to give it back. It’s too hard to explain the whole week so I will just list the behaviour that happened - he hit her several times a day, spat at her, spat in her food, pulled faces at her, pressed his forehead against hers while pulling faces several times a day, he would give her toys then quickly snatch them away, run off with them and then dangle them in front of her and say she can’t have them, threw all her toys in the pool, held her nostrils together tightly and I had to pull his fingers off her nose, push to sit next to her at every meal and shout in her face constantly as she was eating, take her food off her and throw it on the floor etc etc etc. One time he took her toy off her and just licked it constantly in front of her while she cried and just kept smiling and licking it which i just thought was plain weird. We were increasingly frustrated as her parents and I mentioned it to my brother a couple of times and he would laugh about as though oh boys are a lot. My brother and his wife never reprimanded any behaviour of this at all and kept saying it’s because he wants to play and he is only four so he doesn’t understand. But to be honest I felt like she was bullied for a week. By day 3 she would scream in any communal area and wouldn’t go around the pool or anywhere he was so we spent a lot of time indoors on our own or in our room separated. DH still took our eldest in the pool and spent time with him so that his holiday wasn’t ruined so that’s what he was doing most of the time, whilst also trying to help with us. I ended up snapping a couple of times because it all got so overwhelming when we were trying to have a lunch together and after that they told him to stop doing some of the things he was doing but he never listened to them and they never took it further and would just walk away. I wish this was all an exaggeration but it wasn’t - and I supppse i am wondering if this is sometimes normal 4 year old behaviour despite the lack of parenting. I just still feel very upset about how aful the holiday was and very sorry for my child who had to endure it. My brother has sent a few messages since the holiday and I am just finding it really hard to move forward with the relationship. What does anyone think? AiBU?

Not normal, no. Not kind either, I can't believe your brother just sat by and let his kid be a bully to his niece! You are right to be upset. Probably you should have said something really firm early on, but I get that's hard

And you let him sit next to her why?

YANBU
That’s really horrible for your DD
I wouldn’t spend time in their company anytime soon!

Grey Rock your brother, he’s obviously one of ‘those’ parents! At 4 you can definitely discipline if you want to.

Not normal no.

But, really, why were you so passive?

If their parents aren't gonna parent, you have to.

I would have lost my shit with that behaviour very early on

You have a 5 year old boy yourself and unless he and his friends also behave like this you know this isn’t normal behaviour. I mean some can be normal but bratty behaviour like the snatching toys but he spat at her and in her food? That would have been it for me: spitting is revolting and I would have totally lost it. There is no way I’d be on speaking terms with any parent who didn’t deal with that disgusting behaviour the second it happened, family or not. If one of my own kids did that I’d be mortified.

BTW, the 4 year old continues to do this stuff because he is not being taught any different. His parents are doing him no favours.

Just don’t ever go on holiday with them again. Or even arrange a day out together. Be busy.
Not normal parenting from your brother and sil. They are raising a brat.
Avoid at all costs.
But, you should have found your tiger mom and stopped him. Use your words, we don’t do that , we try to be kind to other people, or, stop doing that its not very nice

I would have spoken to my brother at the time, I would not have let my dd suffer.

I would try to sandwich my children between my husband and I and he would pull up another chair and squash it between them until about day 3/4 I said they just can’t sit next to each other anymore. His parents were pretty miffed about that as though we didn’t want home to be friends with our children. My dad started to intervene and pick him up and play with him at his seat. So from about day 3 meals were not sat next to each other but he would still get out of his chair and come over.

Absolutely dreadful behaviour from him, and his parents, your poor DD. I think I would have formed a physical barrier between them at mealtimes and basically ‘guarded’ DD to stop him, but that’s really no holiday for anybody. I absolutely wouldn’t go on holiday with them again.

I can see why you are upset. I do think you and/or DH should have been a lot firmer with both your brother and the boy.

but regardless, I would tell your brother that you are still upset that your holiday was ruined by his son bullying your daughter. You don’t blame your nephew as he obviously doesn’t know better but for his parents to just sit back and watch is disturbing.

his behaviour sounds bizarre - I assume he starts school in September so perhaps this will give him a chance to learn some kindness

I put YABU as I don’t understand why you didn’t stop it.

How did he repeatedly get close enough to her ? You needed to raise it at the time, every time, and ask your db/sil to keep him away from her.

Just to clarify - we did say the things of thats not kind, please don’t snatch, can you give that back she was playing with it, kind hands, here is a different toy for you to play with. We said this constantly. He didn’t listen to us at all - I wondered if he could even hear us. It was all so ineffective.

Terrible behaviour but it sounds like he was bullying you as much as your daughter.

Why on earth did you let this happen beyond day 1? You should have ensured they were never close enough to each other to allow it to happen

This exactly. You should have roared like a mama bear at the adults to monitor their child or that you would do it for them. I wouldn’t let a little boy do that to my daughter and neither would my husband and we have been away with each others families and children.

You should have shamed the parents by picking up and stopping those behaviours immediately. I get that you probably didn’t want to fall out or cause a scene but sometimes you have to.

We were living in the same house. Plus i have never had my personal space invaded so much. They rarely watched him - he would constantly run into our room and get in the bed and we would take him back to his parents and 1 minute later it would happen again. It feels like a made up story.

I really just don't understand why you didn't lose your shit at your brother.

You mentioned your dad at dinner keeping them apart: What did other family members do/say about things?

Advocate for your child better next time 🤦‍♀️

(although I would probs avoid a “next time”)

Its normal 4 year old behaviour for a child that hasn't been given boundaries and behaviour expectations.

Your brother needs to step up and parent/discipline his kids.

I would have been very firm with his kid and told him odd and even made him sit on a naughty chair or remove him from the situation.

You needed to bring this up with your brother at the time.

Yes hes a little brat but its for you and dh to protect your child. I wouldn't of been polite or quiet during any of this.

You need to prioritise your dd and keep her safe from this boy.

I had a cousin who was a terror at that age. His mum wasn't as bad as your brother and SIL but she couldn't control him, so my parents kept us safe by keeping us away from him.

No more holidays with them.
Don't invite them over or go over there.
And at family events, hold your dd, pick her up, take her away to keep her safe.

Didn’t your parents say anything to him?
If your brother wouldn’t parent then you should have intervened more. I know it would have created tensions but it wasn’t fair on dd.

This is such an odd story - why would any adult let their child be bullied by a 4 year old, or think their only option was to go hide in their room? You step in every time and protect your child, and ensure they can keep doing what they want on their holiday like going to the pool, playing with their toys etc, because their parent will stand up for them. You or your DH is surely capable of dealing with a 4 year old? (Not that you should have to, your DB and wife/partner if present are completely crap)