Rubbish holiday guest

[Purtyburty]

I would like some perspective on a holiday I had in France a couple of weeks ago. DH and I are really upset and disappointed with how this holiday went down and I am struggling moving forward with some family relationships. A family group spent a week in a holiday home and my brother’s family were a part of it. He has two children. An 8 year old girl and 4 year old boy. We have a 5 year old DS and a 2 year old DD. From the first day the 4 year old boy targeted my DD. We bought a her a couple of new toys for the holiday including pool toys. Everything she touched or held was immediately snatched from her. She would cry about this but we asked politely to give it back. It’s too hard to explain the whole week so I will just list the behaviour that happened - he hit her several times a day, spat at her, spat in her food, pulled faces at her, pressed his forehead against hers while pulling faces several times a day, he would give her toys then quickly snatch them away, run off with them and then dangle them in front of her and say she can’t have them, threw all her toys in the pool, held her nostrils together tightly and I had to pull his fingers off her nose, push to sit next to her at every meal and shout in her face constantly as she was eating, take her food off her and throw it on the floor etc etc etc. One time he took her toy off her and just licked it constantly in front of her while she cried and just kept smiling and licking it which i just thought was plain weird. We were increasingly frustrated as her parents and I mentioned it to my brother a couple of times and he would laugh about as though oh boys are a lot. My brother and his wife never reprimanded any behaviour of this at all and kept saying it’s because he wants to play and he is only four so he doesn’t understand. But to be honest I felt like she was bullied for a week. By day 3 she would scream in any communal area and wouldn’t go around the pool or anywhere he was so we spent a lot of time indoors on our own or in our room separated. DH still took our eldest in the pool and spent time with him so that his holiday wasn’t ruined so that’s what he was doing most of the time, whilst also trying to help with us. I ended up snapping a couple of times because it all got so overwhelming when we were trying to have a lunch together and after that they told him to stop doing some of the things he was doing but he never listened to them and they never took it further and would just walk away. I wish this was all an exaggeration but it wasn’t - and I supppse i am wondering if this is sometimes normal 4 year old behaviour despite the lack of parenting. I just still feel very upset about how aful the holiday was and very sorry for my child who had to endure it. My brother has sent a few messages since the holiday and I am just finding it really hard to move forward with the relationship. What does anyone think? AiBU?

I have a family member who practices "gentle" ie permissive parenting like this.

Most of the kids are a bit wild but fine. The youngest is honestly a little shit. I've never seen a child so poorly behaved. He does extreme things like hitting, spitting etc to get a rise, then he laughs. I suspect his parents don't give him enough proper, constructive attention but also it is amazing to see how they twist themselves in knots to avoid saying no. When no would be much easier to understand and honestly do this kid a favour.

OP, ignore the unkind people telling you how you didn't respond correctly - sounds to me like you did everything you could.

No,this behaviour isn't usual, but i also think it's just a sign of disconnected parents.

In an ideal world, you could call your brother and explain what you did here, how your daughter was bullied by his son BUT could this please be addressed so you could spend time with the family. I suspect in reality your brother won't recognise any of the behaviour you described and won't do anything.

So talk to your parents - you said your dad intervened a few times (good man). Say you can't attend family events where your nephew will be there - but you also don't want to be penalised/ excluded because you have to keep away to avoid him. So family events are you or your brother, and you'd like it to be fair.

I’ve just re-read your OP and the extent of you advocating for your child was this bit: ‘I mentioned it to my brother a couple of times’

You were passive and seem unable to see it.

Ffs OP! Find your backbone and advocate (PROPERLY!) for your child!!

”Kind hands” and “please give it back” are just wet!! You need to step up here for goodness sake!

I despair sometimes, honest to god! 🤦‍♀️🤯

Well, you tell him no then. And that he's not to get anywhere near your daughter. And if he comes again you tell his parents to do something about it.

I can't believe that 6 adults spent their week watching a 4yo bully a 2yo and did nothing about it.

OP, you’re dead right.

The sad truth is that you’ll have to give DN a wide berth till he improves. Which is likely, luckily for family harmony.

Don’t make a big deal of it - but if DB asks, tell the truth. Explain DD was very unhappy with his aggressive behaviour and time apart is the solution.

Avoid family row with a ‘more in sorrow than in anger’ tone.

He’s raising a psycho
Kid will probably murder him in 10 years or so

So many things were said that I can’t get into on here. That short post didn’t detail a whole week worth of conversations and incidents. I imagine you would understand that. But since you don’t I have pointed out for you.

Same. Baffling behaviour from you. I feel for your dd because you kept her away from the pool and ruined your own holiday because you were too scared to stand up to a 4yo or speak to your brother.

Omg I can’t go through this again

I think all you can do is go forwards from here, and that for me would be avoiding any situations where the children need to mix. And I'd be making it very clear why to your parents.

That amount of targeted bullying doesn't sound normal to me. Either he has some underlying problems that his parents aren't addressing or he's just a spoiled brat with a mean streak. (Yes, even 4-year-olds can be brats, especially if their parents don't bother with any parenting.)

YWNBU to expect his parents to have been mortified and given him consequences when simple verbal intervention wasn't effective. They're failing him. I'd avoid him as much as possible and be prepared to react firmly the next time you're all together. They may accept this behaviour, but you don't have to, even if the only option is leaving (and not worrying if anyone's offended).

Honestly, I think most people are saying that, given what you’ve detailed, they’d have either had it out on the holiday or after a few incidents just separated themselves from your DB and DN. I take it the children have never played together much prior to the holiday? It seems extreme if they normally play together fine but this all happened whilst away.

I’d probably be brutally honest with your DB and say what you’ve said here. Maybe it will be the kick up the arse he needs to sort out his child’s behaviour!

Sounds awful.

Different parenting styles can be awkward on holiday, but this level of non-parenting would have driven me round the bend. I think I'd have planned a lot of outings for just my family away from the shared accom tbh.

Why weren't consequences put in place though? If the parents weren't doing it, could you not have been giving him ultimatums?

• if you are unkind to her one more time you won't have dessert
• no more swimming pool today if there is any hitting
• you spat, so we can't play thay board game later

Or whatever.

I don't see how the kid was able to act this way all week, with no sort of consequence ? Once it is obvious his own parents aren't going to step up, you should.

Oh and I wouldn't say it is normal behaviour, it sounds more like boredom and attention seeking with a massive lack of boundaries / structure.

Ultimately I feel like the relationship probably is ruined tbh. From the sounds of it you would never want your daughter near this boy again.
Unfortunately I had similar when a close friend joined my family and parents on a holiday, she has 1 son older than my kids. Her son was mean to my daughter on multiple occasions, my mum even heard the boy call her ugly at the end of the week, she was 3! It was bullying!! We told the boy off on multiple occasions and friend tried but wasn't listened to much.
The friendship was never the same after that was we have drifted as we don't live close by and I don't want her to stay at my house with her son. This is my children's safe space!

But you’re now contradicting yourself your original post, in which you describe your child as ‘being bullied for a week’.

Sorry OP but I'm going to have to agree with the posters who say you should have been more assertive. His behaviour went way beyond being dealt with by gentle parenting.

When he took a toy I would have removed it from and told him "x was playing with that, we don't snatch".

When he tried to squeeze a chair in I'd have taken him by the hand, grabbed the chair and told him there wasn't room to sit there he needed to sit somewhere else and I'd have put him and the chair in a different spot. All business, no negotiation.

Going forward he cannot have contact with your daughter. It doesn't matter who it upsets, it's not fair to her. I would tell your brother why. I would keep the account of the events which informed your decision factually and I would not debate with him about how bad it was. His perspective is irrelevant, you know the effect it had on your daughter and that's enough.

If your DD was miserable for the entire week it means that you failed to alter your nephew's behaviour / protect her from it / leave in the absence of either of those two.

Of course you shouldn't have had to. Of course your brother should have parented properly. Of course the nephew's behaviour was unacceptable.

But your summary in particular, which doesn't mention you disciplining this child any more than your brother did, but says that your DD was bullied for a week, does make it sound like you were way too passive and gentle.

We can only go on what you tell us. You've mentioned one time you "went to town" on the nephew. If your OP had said "I properly told him off, time and again, really did my best to lay some strict rules, got outright angry with him on multiple occasions, and eventually had to settle for keeping him and DD completely apart" you'd be getting very different answers. Maybe that's what happened, but it's not what you've said.

So why didn't you have a strong onversation with them then about how unnaceptable not only was their sons behaviour but their lack of action regarding it?

Somebody else was taking the boy off and keeping him away - OP's dad. Have you not read the thread? OP spoke to her nephew and brother multiple times and attempted to correct her nephew's behaviour with zero backup from the parents. When the brother tried to minimise things, OP's dad backed her up.

OP is not the problem here! The problem is her nephew's parents who are, unfortunately, close relatives - which makes everything harder especially when you are trapped in close quarters with them for two weeks.

I am sure OP has had plenty of input by now to know that this wasn't normal behaviour, which was her actual question. Hopefully she's got a plan of action and will not allow anything similar to happen in future.

That’s a fair point you’ve made.

We did do those things but my discipline of him wasn’t the point of my thread originally but now seems to be the whole point of the thread.

OP, unfortunately when you offload on mumsnet, lots of posters take the opportunity to pick someone apart and administer a shredding. They think that vilifying you elevates them.
You can't detail a blow by blow account of every exchange you had about this over the course of a week. People are just determined to find fault for their own purposes.
Don't get into it with them.

Ignore the people criticising you. What are you planning to do in the future? Are you due to meet up with them any time soon?

I had a friend whose child would target my child. It was relentless. I had 2 under 2 so trying to look after them and keep this child away from mine was impossible. It is not as simple as it sounds. If I told the child off, they would go crying to mum. If I moved my child he followed. Mum was oblivious and if challenged made excuses or blamed other children. The only solution was to never meet up with this child. School has not gone well and they are violent towards mum. Whole situation is desperately sad.

Best advice on this thread.