School toilets

[Sweetheart1990]

School toilets!
Son text me to say he had walked out of lesson after being refused permission to go to the toilet, he had finished all his work. I have always told him to do this if he is desperate but he never actually has before.
He has been put in isolation.
I'm angry as I really believe that students should be allowed to go when they need to and he had completed all tasks so was just say in the classroom anyway.
What does everyone else think?

Teachers aren't allowed to go for the vast majority of the day. From bus duty in the morning, to lessons back to back, break time duties, meetings at lunchtime, back to back lessons and then after school duties (bus, detentions, meetings). There are days when I don't have a chance to go to the loo between arriving at school and the end of the day.

Once when desperate, I nipped to the loo before breaktime duty and because I was late, was given a verbal warning.

I believe nurses have similar issues.

Whereas, students have chance to go to the loo at least hourly.

Totally agree.

Society complains about children not being toilet trained when they start school and then completely ignore toileting needs once they’re at school. Bladders and bowels don’t have schedules, particularly in younger children, children and young people with medical conditions and neurodivergent children and young people.

Toilet access and poor toilet conditions in schools are massive factors in bladder and bowel conditions in young people, particularly withholding and constipation.

I get that managing large classes is difficult, particularly in secondary schools. However, sometimes I think if we treated children and young people in schools with more dignity and respect we might find it doesn’t always lead to anticipated chaos.

Yes my mistake, I assume he has

@quackers7 I appreciate teachers have a tough job policing this and that it is disruptive for kids to constantly be in and out of lessons for the toilet but I also think they should use their discretion and common sense. The alternative really is quite unthinkable.

We do of course. But also bear in mind, if that child we use our discretion for then floods the loos (blocking with loo paper), graffiti, faecal smearing, smoking, vaping, drinking, bullying others, WE are held responsible for letting them out. Betting our jobs on the honesty of teenagers (who, while we love working with them, can be absolute little whatsits at times).

Do you want to risk your job on the honesty/trustworthyness of a 15 year old?

Students are penalised if they are late too. My ds also says the toilets are full of kids vaping and being intimidating during actual breaks which makes them less likely to want to use them in the designated times. Maybe if schools focused on this sort of thing rather than archaic rules then they’d do better all round.

There will always be whataboutery in the sense that some jobs really do mean you can’t access a loo very often. But this isn’t the case here, it’s that the schools are refusing it.

No but I also wouldn’t want a 15 year old to soil themselves in my classroom. You’d be responsible for that too.

Kids cannot use the toilet on the coach...they must wear their seatbelt at all times....

Well you've been chatting away for almost an hour and a half, so why not ring the school again and ask for a very simple answer to your very simple question?

"Has my child been put in isolation, yes or no?"

Thankyou, this is what I'm annoyed about, they are all for attendance etc and clearly only bothered about the numbers, because he's not in lessons if he's in isolation so missing out on actually learning. He may as well sit at home with the laptop as sit there.

Schools stop lesson time use or the loos will be full of kids vaping and being intimidating without anyone to police them in lesson time (because the teachers are all in classrooms teaching).

This isn't new. It's been the case since I was at school.

We only have the student's word for it that he was desperate, rather than a bit bored.
How does a teacher know which of 30 teenagers are genuine and which trying it on? And how much time out of the lesson does this take?

How did that conversation go exactly? "Mum, the toilet doors are locked during lesson times"... "No problem, son. If you need to go, just go, get up and leave and break down the door if you have to"

🙄

I have rung the school, no answer now, just leave message. If I don't hear back I. The next 10 mins I will be driving down

Unfortunately, in my career, I've seen a lot more vandalism/bad behaviour than I have soiled trousers. Statistically, it's just much more likely so that's what schools work with.

Sorry - what? Off course you just leave the room quietly. Not everyone can hold it for hours

No I saw it in the local news before he started that school, saw lots of comments from unhappy parents, I told my son if he is desperate, go.

But how if the doors are locked...
And if you don't agree with the school rules, why did you send him there?

I had this with DS2 - I formally complained after they tried to give him a 1 day suspension for “ breaking” rules, - I advised their “rules” didn’t over rule Dfe policies.

I’ve edited this to remove ds details and personal information and amended for your child,

I cc’d in the safeguarding lead, governors and his head of year and head teacher.

Ds was issued with a toilet pass the next day.

Email sent.

I am very concerned about the incident in which my child was refused permission to use the toilet, became desperate, and felt they had no choice but to leave the classroom.

Issuing isolation for meeting a basic bodily need is not appropriate and raises concerns regarding safeguarding, duty of care and compliance with DfE behaviour guidance (2022)

Your behaviour policy state that sanctions must be fair and consider wellbeing. Denying a basic bodily need rarely fits within “reasonable discipline” by refusing my child basic toilet needs you caused my child
Schools must avoid causing unnecessary distress, physical discomfort and potential humiliation, which is in direct breach of your duty of care policy.

Your safeguarding and welfare policy also covers physical pain and discomfort, refusing him to use the toilet caused him to be in pain and physical discomfort to the point out of desperation he had to leave the classroom unauthorised, is a clear sign his welfare was not prioritised.

Sanctions must be reasonable, proportionate, and take into account a child’s age, needs, and wellbeing. Denying toilet access and then punishing the child does not meet this standard.

I am requesting an urgent review of this incident, removal of the isolation from my child’s record, and reassurance that my child will not be penalised for needing to use the bathroom in future.

Please confirm how the school intends to address this and what steps will be taken to prevent similar issues.

’Male humans’ who are at secondary school, unless they have any disability, are quite capable of using the loo before and after lessons and lasting an hour.
Female humans who have periods have menstruation made harder by lads dicking about.
I don’t know where you went to school but every school I have ever been in had a much higher proportion of the male humans Messing about than the females.
Nowhere have I said they are evil -that’s you who said that.
HTH.

The school had stopped this policy after the backlash so they aren't locked anymore. I was just explaining how I had come to have the conversation about leaving the room of you are desperate with my son originally

I've never had a job where I couldn't nip out to the loo, most adults can. I realise teachers are a bit screwed in this respect and that's not OK, I have taught, but HE, so it was never an issue.

Thankyou

Of course I would, if I need to use the bathroom. I will do so. I will simply excuse myself from the meeting.

I think sometimes teachers seem to be on power trips. Possibly because many have never left education. School, University then teaching. Tough job though and many are doing a great job.

My husband worked at a secondary school as a caretaker. During lessons was prime time for toilets to get vandalised. Kids would prime each other to leave lessons at a certain time, supposedly to go to the toilet...but they would meet up and literally wreck the toilets- boys and girls!
There weren't any teachers around because they were teaching.....
The damage was incredible...not just grafitti on the wall...
Smashed sinks and toilet pans, flooding- which caused nearby classrooms to have to close..holes in doors....not to mention them smoking in there...
It's the kids who are to blame for toilets being shut, not teachers...

I say this to pupils all the time: 'You don't see staff leaving a classroom to visit the toilet: we go before school, at break & lunch, even if that means we don't need at exactly that moment, the body will usually go'.

Exceptions are for those with a toilet pass, those that say they feel ill, or girls on their period (you can tell as it's quiet & polite requests). If it's unusual for a pupil/ a first request/ they really seem desperate I do give a toilet slip, but remind them it's not to be a habit. Our slips are collected & sorted every day so we can spot patterns.

I'm often in classes all day- 7 periods- so the only chance is at breaks. I understand if your DS has been ill (pupil support will issue a pass), has ASN (again, a pass), or had simply forgotten to go this once, but it's super disruptive as if one goes, it's a deluge of requests.