Managing veterinary conditions in livery

[Paddiwack]

If you are on livery where certain management is needed for veterinary conditions - if those cannot be provided by the yard are they in breach of contract? I'm thinking in terms of laminitis and restricted grazing / and services like soaking hay etc. If you have to move because those things are not available, when they've said they would be, do you have to give a full month's notice?

Basically I was given a small bit of yard to use ad hoc, when the grass is too much, but now it's being used by someone else as they say I don't need it (because I manage dpony well and he's not fat 🙄). I'm petrified I won't get it back again if I need it for the frosts. I also know they don't bother with things like rinsing my soaked hay when I've asked for assistance. Nothing specific in contract of course, but I'm thinking of what to include in contract if I move elsewhere, which I'll have to as this has peed me right off! 🤦‍♀️

Bump 😊

If the extra services/facilities you need aren’t specified in your contract then I can’t see how the yard would be in breach of contract for not providing them - however frustrating it is for you. You might need to be looking for a rehab facility or track-type livery specialising in the management of laminitic-prone ponies but that’s likely to be expensive and not necessarily nearby..

I think this reflects one of the issues with the horse world in general. Yards are rarely set up to be able to manage these conditions - yet often provide the type of management that causes them. Sometimes wish we were better regulated tbh.

I think if you have a pony that's prone to health issues, it's ultimately your responsibility to make sure they're kept somewhere suitable for their needs - it's not really down to the yard to change their facilities to suit you mid-contract.

There are places that specialise in care for laminitis etc, or maybe you could do DIY and pay someone to come and sort your pony on the days you can't. Lots of dog walkers or pet care providers could help with something like that.

Oral contracts are also contracts though. If they said they would be able to provide these services but don't- that could in theory also be breach of contract.

I'm currently very bitter with yards though 😒I think there's probably no such thing as a perfect yard, unless you have your own land. On a very minor point, I'm yet to find a yard where staff actually pick out feet after they turn in, even though all yards promise they do it 😅

The thing with oral contracts is that there's no way of proving who has said what.

That would increase costs though. There is a very good cheap yard locally which is farm based. They cut their own straw and haylage and do an all inclusive diy livery for £30 per week. It includes an arena to share and there are solid tracks round the land so there is off road hacking. That kind of place would not survive if they had to do much in the way of paperwork.

With the greatest respect - you chose your yard!

I have a DIY yard. We have a hard standing turnout that is fabulous for horses needing restricted grazing, or those coming back from box rest, and obviously also for bad weather. I point this out when people look round. But I can’t always section off parts of fields as we have a rotation of spring/summer/autumn/winter fields and they all get rested inbetween. Various horses have various requirements. It’s impossible to cater for everyone. The owner has to choose a yard that suits their horse. My own horse was diagnosed with COPD last year, and despite having my own yard I looked at moving him to a track/barn livery that might have been better for him than my own yard. Luckily I’m able to manage it at home for now. But the horse comes first.

But you're basically including all horses in that. Literally all horses can develop metabolic issues as a precursor to laminitis, if their blood sugar levels aren't managed alongside regular exercise. Some breeds are more prone than others, this is true, but any can develop them. Many yards still rely on horses standing in for hours on end, or are stood knee deep in mud in the winter, so aren't moving around. Hacking is reduced in winter due to ground conditions and not all can cope with going round in circles for days on end. There's an epidemic of equine obesity and very few rehab facilties or track systems available. I'm personally beginning to think no horse should be kept anywhere that doesn't have management with the will or ability to manage metabolic issues. YO are ultimately responsible for the health and welfare of the horses on their land. Too many IME just want to wash their hands of any horses that develop issues that the vet profession say are manageable conditions, and if there aren't vacancies available at more suitable places when you need them, you are then desperate and pretty much stuffed. Larger stables would go a long way to help them keep moving around if they can't go out.

I can see both sides of this. The smaller yards wouldn't be able to provide that level of service and are disappearing anyway at a very alarming rate for housing. Being totally responsible for horses and land is a massive expensive burden. Staff are very hard to find,especially reliable ones and it is such a physical job. Land is very expensive and the yards discussed would cost a small mortgage a month per horse. This is why if you want the best care often DIY with a very negotiated deal on turn out if you can manage it is the best welfare option but owners say they cannot manage that quite often now. Having set up on my own with horses after loosing 2 lovely but not perfect yards the horses were on to development I realise just how hard it is to be responsible for them. It is very unlikely that we would offer a livery place and if we did there would be no way I could take on full responsibility for the welfare of a horse or pony and its conditions. I don't mean to be rude but if you consider the responsibility, stress and work to cost ratio it really doesn't make that much sense. Having had lots of sleepless nights about livery then realising how much work and responsibility running a yard is first hand that is my thought unfortunately. I think a more specialist yard or somewhere that will guarantee you the space you need would be the answer but may well be hard to find unfortunately.

@Paddiwack I just think it's down to the owner to choose a yard that's suitable for their horses needs - it's just not realistic to expect a yard owner to have enough land and indoor space to manage (say) 15 horses with 15 different health needs and who all need 15 different routines and types of turnout, and 15 different feeding schedules etc.

IMO best option for horses with health issues is either an expensive, specialist livery yard or somewhere that's DIY and you as the owner go down multiple times a day to make sure your horse has what it needs. Of course the easiest option is to keep your horse at home but the majority can't do that.

I do get what you're saying in that yard owners want easy work but who wouldn't? Most people aren't going to take on difficult jobs when there's a load of easy jobs just ready and waiting.

I do agree with the OP that things like larger stables are better welfare. I’m sure yards exist with higher welfare standards but are more expensive. Mine are on my own yard, turned out 24/7 all year round with access to ad lib forage. When they are in the stables are modern, light airy and large enough for the size of equine. I own that though and as a previous poster said would be very reluctant to take in a livery. I like the fact that I am in control of my own horses welfare and if people disagree with the way I do things that doesn’t matter. Plenty of traditional equestrians would look at my muddy monsters and think they are not receiving top notch care but I think their pristine stabled friends are missing out.

I think you've hit the nail on the head re. cost.

Most yard owners simply don't have the space for massive stables, lots of different types of turnout etc. And the ones that do will have to charge a fortune to cover basic running costs.

I really don't think metabolic conditions are or should be viewed as all that specialist - not when obesity is at epidemic levels. I think we're at a stage in the industry where we all need to reflect on the management we offer and the real cost to the horses we have in our care. Maybe it's not a bad thing some yards are giving up. Only the strongest and with highest standards will and should survive. Many horse owners are completely at the mercy of YO - you never know how much bullshit you've been fed the extent of the facilities available until you've been there for several months. You often have to take what's available at any given time. I've long thought it's why we see so many go from one yard to another come spring and autumn - all seeking that elusive set up that actually works for them, to be able to give their horse the best they can.

I don't think they're seen as specialist so much as expensive and a bit of a hassle - something that many yard owners just don't want to take on and be responsible for, which is totally fair enough.

This may not be popular, but if you're at the mercy of a random yard owner to care for your horse properly, maybe it's the case that you shouldn't have one? I await the flaming, but horse ownership is a massive responsibility and if you don't have the time to do it yourself (or the money to throw at a professional set-up) maybe it's a case of it being the wrong time to own a horse.

I ride and do ad-hoc care for friends horses, and would love my own, but realistically I just don't have the time or the money to do it properly - and I certainly wouldn't be able to manage something like laminitis or a horse that needed multiple visits per day - especially if that condition needed to be managed for 20+ years.

I get your point, and all I will say without outing myself is that it's easy to judge. However much of a secure job, good health and a contingency fund you start out with (I had all of those things) circumstances can and do change (mine did). Basically, what you're saying is that unless you've got 30 years worth of full or rehab livery and 10s of thousands in possible veterinary fees in the bank, no-one should ever buy a horse.

When you talk of being at the mercy of any "random yard owner" I'm talking about anyone with a horse in livery ending up in my situation - DIY isnt always the answer (I've done the 4 x times a day thing) - you're still largely at the mercy of YO dictating grazing management and available stabling. I've already done 10 x more than most people would for dpony. Most would have sold on the sly to god knows where or had dpony shot by now. I'm just saying the minimum standards on offer of livery in the industry needs to change, in recognition that we've ended up with an epidemic of equine obesity, which doesn't happen overnight.

I'm fast coming to the conclusion that no-one should support the keeping of horses anywhere where there are not facilities to manage metabolic disorders, because they are just enabling the situation to continue. But most just accept it with either complete ignorance, or with a big dose of hope that it doesn't happen to them, or naivity in believing that having insurance cover is enough.

You're being unrealistic with expectations. Livery yards, in the main, cater for only bog-standard horses/ponies and you're expected to fit in as best you can. Mostly, with veterinary conditions, this will mean any restrictions to grazing will be by you visiting more often (to turn out/bring in at your preferred times) or by you keeping the animal stabled and exercising it daily.

Assistance is usually in the form of turning out at usual times, bringing in at usual times, feeding, rug changes, hanging up haynets, refilling water buckets and skipping out poo. Extras like soaking hay, rinsing soaked hay, scrubbing feed/water buckets, full muck out, hoof picking, leg hosing etc generally aren't done. Even on full livery the service is generally pretty basic with no option for special measures. Bluntly, they are a business, there are a million easy going and fully healthy horses/ponies out there as potential customers, they don't need the difficult-to-manage ones so they don't cater to them.

If you can't buy or rent your own place, which is most of us, then you remain at livery doing the best you can. If you can't keep the animal healthy long term, you have three options.
Option 1. Get them healthy one last time so you can sell to someone else and hope they can give your animal a better home than you can manage (often unlikely TBH since we're mostly all in the same boat, but sometimes an owner with more available time or in a different area of the country (different weather/land) will make a better job of things than you). Option 2. Continuing as you are with the poor animal having repeated bouts of illness, requiring often expensive and labour intensive treatment.
Option 3 PTS.

In general, there are no magical options of everything being close-to-perfect and everyone living happily ever after. Unless you have money, time and your own land and can make it so. Nobody likes option 3, but animals don't enjoy being passed around from home to home as each owner realises they also can't (or don't want to) cope with the problem, nor do they enjoy being repeatedly unwell.

If you genuinely feel that nobody should keep horses unless restricted grazing facilities are available, you might find that horse ownership isn't really for you. It's expensive and is supposed to be fun - if you're walking around permanently angry, annoyed, stressed etc at the reality of the situation not matching upto your ideals, whilst spending a significant chunk of your disposable income on it, that's not going to make for a pleasant life for you. There's usually something on any yard that needs restricted grazing ideally, if it's going to upset you to see them not get it...

Or, you might decide you're only willing to own a fully healthy animal. Which is the road most people go down and why PTS is a valid choice (the next time your horse/pony becomes unwell, no need to do it now obviously). There's really no market for "old crocks".

Basically, what you're saying is that unless you've got 30 years worth of full or rehab livery and 10s of thousands in possible veterinary fees in the bank, no-one should ever buy a horse.

No, not at all, I just think you have unrealistic expectations of what a yard owner can actually be expected to do. Most also work other jobs and don't have the time or money to spend all day managing the ever-changing needs of multiple horses. It's just not possible unless you have a team of staff, tonnes of land an can charge accordingly.

I think I'm coming at this as someone who owns an animal-related business and who has been criticised in the past for not providing specialist care for difficult animals, and I don't think that's fair. As harsh as it sounds, it's not someone else's responsibility to provide a certain type of care for your animal if they don't feel able to do so - or even if they just don't want to.

It's one of the many reasons I don't own a horse - they're not easy pets and require a huge amount of time and input that I know I couldn't provide long-term. I've always said that the only time I'd own a horse would be if I was retired and could afford to keep it on expensive livery somewhere!

We only have liveries because we have too much grass or for companionship for our now solo horse. I have probably only had 12 in total over the last 20 years, but even out of those we’ve had TBs that needed feeding up, horses with metabolic issues, ones that got bad mud rash, ones with sweet itch. Big ones that went over fences, little ones that went under. Injuries that needed box rest, others with arthiritis that needed to be out. No two ever the same needs. I’ve bent over backwards to help people- left my calm mare in with a livery on boxrest to stop it stressing - nobody offered to do that for me when my horse had to stay in a few months later. And the work/cost on land never stops. We paid £1000 to put hard standing into a gateway to stop poaching. We’d have to do it even more if we sectioned off more strips. And cost of land - we were offered à neighbouring field (1.5 acres, reasonable grazing, two busy footpaths crossing each end) for £75k. I wish people grumbling could understand how hard it is managing land/yards - and weather conditions!

@Roryno I agree. Fundamentally I disagree with restricting grazing as a lifestyle option for animals raised like cobs or hunters or all of the usual breeds without owners offering a lot of work in a day to the horse. I do really value the honesty of this debate. To be totally honest and possibly outing I bought as much land as is usually offered for a small livery yard with the inheritance from unexpectedly and very sadly loosing a parent. It is remote uninmproved land which cost the last of my money to be set up for horses, mostly in fencing. It is hilly and a mixed herd in what would be termed as conservation grazing or a type of native horse landscape with a shelter. 3 horses are managed on 2 x human single hard work hour minimum slots a day ideally 12 hour apart with plenty of space for movement and a cost of external hay / muck heap / fencing etc of about £550 a month in winter with no land purchase costs included. I have a young cob who has a hugely noticeable improvement in her digestive health on this system with no supplements. Twice a day hay and only a daily feed in depths of winter. Lots of mixed grazing. The work involved has blown my mind, horses are happy and I am but competition type schooling which used to be easy enough in a livery yard is a lot to ask on top of the work of providing horses with enough space for movement in an environment which is not too rich in grass and needs complete rest and topping to get over the winter use. Let me repeat that for 3 horses that uses as much land as a livery yard of 18 horses and let that message sink in....

It's one of the many reasons I don't own a horse - they're not easy pets and require a huge amount of time and input that I know I couldn't provide long-term.

The work involved has blown my mind, horses are happy and I am but [...]. Let me repeat that for 3 horses that uses as much land as a livery yard of 18 horses and let that message sink in....

I agree with you both. I believe this is a large part of the problem. People going into horse owning but not being prepared to do what it takes. I'm old and old-school. I've owned many, including some with conditions. Nothing has failed to thrive kept stabled nights, out majority of days (winter weather sometimes restricted it), groomed daily, exercised minimum three times weekly and every day if not turned out. Crucially they were all kept at least halfway to fully fit. Not bimbling around in light work at best.

When I viewed a yard, I did so on the assumption that:
(Unless it was solely full livery only) I'd end up on DIY if the standard of care didn't pass muster.
I'd be down majority of days, even if not riding, to do things like ensuring sodden rugs are hung somewhere they'll actually dry out and there's a replacement ready for tomorrow, groom my horse and check for injury, carrying out any minor first aid and pick hoofs.
I'd be mostly hacking and if I could get into any arenas that would be a bonus, so I'd ensure I was happy with the safety of the hacking facilities, even after work in winter.
I'd be riding most days in winter (anything other than in a lightning storm, basically) due to fields being closed and that if they weren't I'd consider myself lucky to have some turnout that week.
I took note of storage facilities for tack and regardless of whether I thought it'd suit, I'd be prepared for it to live permanently in the boot of my car if needed.
I took note of storage facilities for hay and bedding (sometimes a personal barn and sometimes no more than one pallet!) and checked out local suppliers (if not sold by the yard) to ensure I could organise myself to get a delivery/collection of a suitable amount in a suitable frequency.
Except on those rare occasions (redundancy etc making life difficult), I always had a stable, even if I thought I wouldn't need it, just in case I did. If I didn't have a stable and horse was on field livery, it was on my own understanding that any injuries or illnesses requiring strict box rest would possibly result in PTS instead.

To enable care of the horse, decisions would have to be made round it. Including things like:
Level of socialising - after work drinks was a strict no.
Type of job, hours of work and level of employment - which restricted or limited career choices and success.
Decisions over having DC or not and how many, where/when/length of family holidays, what car to own and when to replace it.
Availability of funds for other things not related to horse and where they'd need to be cut.
Availability of funds for veterinary care and the resulting likely decisions on treatment.
Availability of time to provide care for unwell or not fully healthy horses - ie when to cut my losses and call it quits with a particular animal/condition.

All this was considered in advance, not wait for a situation to occur then panic when there was no easy solution. Essentially, it all boiled down to how much did I want to own a horse (or that particular horse), what was I prepared to give up to make it happen and was that enough to enable it to happen?

Whereas I've seen people lately who have done things like:
Novice riders/first time owners buying a horse unseen from a page of ads as if they're picking one out of a catalogue.
People assuming that what the livery yard owner tells them at viewing is the God's honest truth and will definitely happen.
People assuming that a horse's training in good manners and skills, under saddle and on the ground, is a one-time thing and they don't have to do anything at all to maintain it (and they have no idea how they're training-in bad problems with their daily handling/riding).
People assuming that insurance for vets fees fixes anything and everything, with no additional funds or care from themselves needed and that the horse will be PTS only when very old and after a catastrophe, being unwilling to do it for any other reason even though the horse is suffering to some degree.
A belief that there's a ton of good people just queueing up to provide a home for their ancient/knackered/difficult to ride/manage horse who may need retirement soon.
A total inability to recognise signs of illness or injury or to know any first aid at all or how to bring a horse back to fitness after a break.
Those who think 10min turnout per day is sufficient exercise, then wonder why they're having behavioural/lameness issues during their 3hr 🤦 hack on a Saturday.

Yes it would be nice if there were more and varied livery yards catering for different needs. More than that though, I think a lot of horse owners need to change, to step up and raise their game, both with horsecare/riding and with being willing to pay for what they need, not always go with the cheapest yard. They also need to be facing reality and to know when things are no longer viable, instead of waiting for that catastrophe.

People also need, before they first buy a horse/pony to look into the costs and methods of PTS and disposal. The amount who "can't afford it" is shocking. Not least because if they can afford to keep the horse then they can afford to PTS, all they'd have to do is pay the vet/disposal company the livery/hay/feed/bedding money each week until the bill is cleared. Alongside putting up with their totally justified anger that the owner couldn't pay in full straight away. The PTS fee and disposal fee is the minimum amount of cash you should have in the bank for horsey emergencies.

Sorry that turned into a bit of a moan but I hope it makes anyone who needs to, think.

Totally agree with you both @CountryCob and @recyclingisaPITA - especially the bit about lots of people owning horses when they probably shouldn't.

I also really value the honesty of this debate and grateful for the replies. Pts is probably the option I will come to. I'm not sure I can face another dose of hopes trashed that I can find somewhere that lives up to the spiel fed to me at the door.

The observation that I'm probably not suited to horse ownership anymore is likely fair. I am truly jaded by the whole thing. I was lucky enough to grow up learning/working on some (I realise now) pretty high quality riding schools and livery yards, where preventing laminitis was just the done thing.

Of course I knew sub standard places were out there, but having now seen it with my own eyes, I'm truly horrified by things I've seen on various yards and the number of horses who live lives that are detrimental to their welfare. There's a lethal combination out there, of exploitative YOs, packing them in like sardines, and HO who are either ignorant or naive at best. The industry needs to step up somehow as it's the horses that suffer or we're just stuck with the buck passing from one to the other. If the costs rule out either running yards or ownership, I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

I'll admit I've fallen for the "taking a YO's word for things at face value (or hoping it to be true in reality at least) but I've also received lots of help and support that way too. I'd far rather be back looking after other people's to a higher standard than I can currently keep my own with what's available in my area. I'd just like to see that higher standard be the minimum.

Of course I knew sub standard places were out there, but having now seen it with my own eyes, I'm truly horrified by things I've seen on various yards and the number of horses who live lives that are detrimental to their welfare

It's a shock to realise this is the norm. Unlike you I grew up with worse and hoped for better. Managed to achieve that with my own horses. The only way to stop your heart breaking on a daily basis though is to cocoon yourself in your own world and think "not my circus, not my monkeys" to what anyone else is doing with theirs. When I was younger I'd offer tips to anyone who seemed to be struggling, but even then it has to be done knowing you may get told to take your unsolicited advice and shove it where the sun don't shine. I took the risk and did it for the horses. Some listened and were grateful, some didn't and hated. I CBA now, I'm strictly a mind my own business person these days. It can be helpful to ask yourself whether a welfare agency would remove the horse if you reported it. Animal welfare in UK is better than some countries, but still rather poor. If welfare would do nothing, you have to accept the situation as a difference of opinion in how to keep a horse.

If it helps at all, work plays a huge role in whether a susceptible animal gets laminitis. In those who nobody knew were susceptible, IME it was always first seen when the owner outgrew/went to university/started a job with long hours/got pregnant/gave birth/lost interest or their nerve/retired horse due to it not being able to keep up with the desired workload or the development of arthritis etc... and stopped riding. You don't even want to go on holiday for longer than a week without leaving provision for someone to exercise them.

If there's no history of colic you can feed straw to keep the calories down (preferably barley but wheat has never caused issues for me either. The books say oat straw but that's like trying to find unicorns) just feed a decent multivitamin/mineral too so the body doesn't hang onto it too long trying to extract nutrients from it. Can be helpful if you're on a yard that won't soak hay or only provides haylage.

Wishing you and Neddy all the best.

Thank you @recyclingisaPITA I really appreciate that. I don't want to give too much detail, other than to say I've always busted a gut to keep dpony in work. The issue I had was being told they didn't need to lose weight, that they didn't need soaked hay when in, and ad lib hay put out without being told. I was stuck between a rock and a hard place and just had to hope like hell they'd be okay until I could find somewhere else. I will feel guilty til my dying day that I put dpony in that position, when it was against everything my gut was telling me.