Managing veterinary conditions in livery

[Paddiwack]

If you are on livery where certain management is needed for veterinary conditions - if those cannot be provided by the yard are they in breach of contract? I'm thinking in terms of laminitis and restricted grazing / and services like soaking hay etc. If you have to move because those things are not available, when they've said they would be, do you have to give a full month's notice?

Basically I was given a small bit of yard to use ad hoc, when the grass is too much, but now it's being used by someone else as they say I don't need it (because I manage dpony well and he's not fat 🙄). I'm petrified I won't get it back again if I need it for the frosts. I also know they don't bother with things like rinsing my soaked hay when I've asked for assistance. Nothing specific in contract of course, but I'm thinking of what to include in contract if I move elsewhere, which I'll have to as this has peed me right off! 🤦‍♀️

You've not said anything outing OP. It's not uncommon. Friend of mine eventually found a suitable yard for her difficult one over an hour away from home, then moved house 😅. Now that's extremely dedicated.

Unfortunately many YO aren't experienced, they're just people who happens to have acquired some land for their own horses and gets liveries on there to effectively pay the rent so their own horses are there for free. Or they're farmers who have diversified and have almost no horse experience at all.

We're a nation filled with overweight and obese people, it's become our normal and we're following suit with our pets. Those people who seek to normalise it often seek also to sabotage other's attempts to be healthy. People have lost sight of what healthy weight looks like. Far less harm is done by being a little underweight versus overweight, yet people are horrified if they see a rib occasionally. It's fine to see ribs a little at the end of winter, it's how you avoid obesity by the end of summer.

Next time get the vet out and ask them to tell the YO the horse is to be kept stabled until further notice and to specify the number of slices of hay allowed in 24hrs. There are some absolute bastards who'll still go against it, but sometimes it might be enough to stop them. Put a notice on the stable door re feeding and turnout, and enlist all your friends to come ride/groom as much as possible to provide a presence to prevent excessive feeding and to work off the weight. As long as the horse isn't lame it's fine to take them out 3x a day, lots of walking if they're not fit for it. If you haven't found somewhere better yet, I hope you do soon.

If horse is in a reasonable amount of work and still getting laminitis it's probably EMS or Cushing's causing it and they need meds. You can do a prascend trial to see if it helps. It's not uncommon for the negative Cushing's test results to be false. The vet can give you a prescription for a fee and you can source it online cheaper, if you're willing to treat the condition that is, it's understandable if not, it's not curable and will only deteriorate.

Thanks, yes, both current and last YO scoffed at my vet's recommendations. Which I guess is fine it people don't want to /can't facilitate, I just think I should be released from my contract if I have to move at short notice. Probably being unreasonable but it really grates that they take you in the door and then move the goal posts and expect you to pay up. Hence I was querying about what to look for in the next contract, if we get that far...

Could you go DIY and pay for a freelance groom to come in on the days where you're unavailable?

Lots of dog walkers offer equestrian services as well.

OP the horse world is about 50 years behind the rest of society and in addition, most YO aren't business-people and don't behave in a professional manner. Plenty of them wouldn't get/keep a job working for anyone else, such is the level of their people skills. Contracts in the horse world are relatively new things and are worth jack shit, they're just a means to force you to pay up, that's all. Just skim it for additional/hidden charges and ridiculous rules/opening hours that makes it a deal-breaker for you.

It's highly unlikely you'll ever be released from the contract early. You could stick two fingers up and not pay, they may not take you to small claims court. Depends on if your area is huge or small though, word gets around, especially in these online days.

Like I said in my earlier post, don't expect anything other than a stable (and be pleased if it doesn't leak), space in a field with a water trough (and be pleased if the fence is sufficient to keep the horses in it and if you're allowed to use it in winter) and some space somewhere to keep some hay and bedding (expect to purchase your own tarp to keep it dry or a lockable box to stop others stealing it), there should also be a water tap somewhere. Anything else is a bonus, regardless of what fairy tales they've tried to sell you.

I wasn't expecting them to comply with your vets full recommendations for keeping a laminitic, but to perhaps listen if they were told by a vet not to turn it out or give extra hay "because it's run out". That's the level of what you can expect. They're not usually going to be setting up anything individual just because the vet says your horse needs it - they don't care. Of course you can ask, but expect a no. If they're at all grumpy in nature I wouldn't even recommend asking, it could get you labelled a troublemaker and with those types life is a lot simpler if you keep your head down and just fly under their radar, unnoticed.

YO decides what grazing, stabling etc they can offer. If it doesn't suit you/your horse then it's up to you to find somewhere that does unfortunately. They're businesses - not public services.

I've always tried hard to be flexible & meet needs as much as I can & strive to put horses welfare first but with liveries all wanting different things & all wanting their horse to be a priority there does need to be some boundaries & realistic expectations of what can be provided.

If you need something drastically different or higher needs than other liveries then you might need to compromise or look elsewhere.

If the horse needs restricted grazing/grass free then you need to look for somewhere that can accommodate that. A YO can't magic up a grass free track.

If the horse needs more visits for medication or feeds can you compromise with the YO organizing & providing morning & afternoon & then you either providing the other visits or paying extra for YO to do it or see if they will allow an external freelancer?

Track systems and grass free options are becoming more popular & easier to find. It's worth getting on the waiting list if they're full.

I do understand that to an extent as the norm in the current times. I'm still of the opinion the norm needs to change.

No horse is born with a metabolic disorder - they are created from bad management and are a result of a combination of poor facilities, inappropriate diet and exercise - which are a combination of responsibility of the owner and yard manager. I'm glad there are more track type systems popping up, it shows there is a market for them. They are the way forward IMO and I think the BHS, BEF and councils need to step in and increase the basic standards for keeping horses.

Too many ignorant YO and HO finding themselves having created the problems, with nowhere to go for conditions that are both preventable and manageable and it's the horses suffering. Something needs to change.

It is very hard to find the type of space and set up which is more natural to horses and has an arena/ car park/ concrete and storage facilities even running water and electricity. I see so many wanted adverts for yards with a floodlit yard as a minimum. Are there any mixed herd fields you could join nearby?

I think the main problem is that yard owners can only work with what they have - it costs a fortune to buy extra land or to put in grass-free grazing - and then they have to make sure it's profitable too.

It's very easy to say that YO's need to provide XYZ but many just physically can't offer those things. A lot of the yard around here are very basic - because, well, there isn't another option. It's just not possible to provide multiple types of turnout or limited grazing. I agree that it sucks - but realistically, I'm just not sure what there is to be done abut it.

Ha, x-post with you @CountryCob !

I do get that - very few places are properly set up to provide for manageable conditions and basic rehab. I'm sure it's not a popular suggestion, but I'm wondering if we (society) need to consider whether those kinds of places should be allowed for equestrian use at all. If there are no places like that, then owners either can't get horses in the first place (because they have nowhere to keep them) or more yards create the facilities needed - and owners have to pay. The more places that offer cheap/below par livery, the more people will use them, and the cycle continues.

But those basic yards do work for many people - where I am, pretty much every yard is as you describe and the horses seem to thrive.

I share care with a friend of mine while she's away and her horse is out 24/7 with free access to a barn with ad-lib haylage. I go down once a day to give him his bucket feed and basically give him a once-over, but otherwise he has free range to do as he pleases. He's 30 next year and has never had colic or laminitis - the only health issue he has is a bit of arthritis.

I'm not sure a blanket ban on basic yards makes any sense - ultimately it's up to the owner to make sure the yard they use suits them or their horse. It's unfortunate that basic yards don't suit some people but that doesn't mean those yards shouldn't exist. It just means, like you say, that those people probably shouldn't have a horse.

I just don't think it should be yard owners that are held responsible for that, if that makes sense.

I think that until you've run a yard and know how expensive it is in both money and time, then its so easy to say yards should have X, Y, and Z. Unfortunately, liveries do not appreciate the costs and a lot of yards struggle to break even. Also, it is very difficult to recruit and keep yard staff, because not many people are up to doing all the work that is involved, in all weathers.

But I'd say the horse in your example does have the facilities needed - it sounds like the barn (or an area of it) could be shut off if box rest was needed? It sounds like if a small area was needed this too could be facilitated.

Your friend is very lucky to never have had a day's illness or injury - what will she do if he does? It's the sort of thing too many people don't want to consider until it's too late.

It's not just conditions like lami or ems I'm talking about, but somewhere for boxrest if needed and small paddock after an injury so they don't do stupid stuff. Or isolation for anything contagious etc. Too many just cross their fingers and hope for the best, and are either very lucky (like your friend) or end up pts, when simple facilities could (and should) be thought about beforehand. It's "best practice". I'm just shocked I think, that so many don't seem to care.

Yes - it's not just the weather either, it's being limited in terms of timings and daylight etc too. It's hard.

A friend ran a riding school and had a couple of private liveries and she was working quite a few hours everyday outside of her paid hacks - and that was with the horses living out with just ad-lib hay thrown in. She closed in the end as her prices had to rise so much that people just weren't willing to pay.

@Paddiwack

He does have the facilities needed, but he's just one horse on private land (at home) with field mates nearby. The owner only needs to worry about his needs - not about what she'd do if she had multiple horses all with different grazing and turnout needs. Being a yard owner with multiple liveries is much, much harder.

In terms of illness or injury - he's 30 - so the amount of intervention she'd put him through is likely to be fairly minimal, in all honesty. She can do box rest and limited grazing but for anything serious, he would probably be PTS.

The thing with "simple facilities" is that they have to try and provide them for multiple different horses who may need the same facilities at the same time. So if you have 15 horses on livery, you have to be able to balance everyone's needs. So horse A may need restricted grazing but can't share a space with Horse D because they fight, so now the YO has to provide two restricted paddocks etc. The costs mount up surprisingly quickly - and that's before you think about time, restricted daylight in winter, safety, and how you're physically going to be at the yard to bring the horses in/out at certain times, 365 days a year.

I don't think it's that people don't care (though I'm sure some don't) - it's that ultimately, owning a yard needs to be profitable, and having complex animals on your books that need more complex care just...isn't. Like I said up-thread, I work with animals and have been criticised for not helping for complex animals and honestly, it's a bit shit to have people think you should help them out of the goodness of your heart - without thinking about the financial and emotional implications.

I'm not sure I'm shifting my viewpoint.

Horses are complex animals to manage. Many go lame or have issues all the time!

Perhaps yards should only take on the number of horses they can properly look after. A yard with 15 horses is always going to have a few with issues at any one time. That's the law of averages and something that needs to be planned for and built into the business plan and costed in. Otherwise it's not viable and shouldn't be running. It's no good just washing your hands of any horses that develop treatable issues and dumping it back on an owner to find emergency rehab at short notice. Horse owners pay vast amounts to keep their horses. As a minimum I'd say basic rehab facilties should be available for a sensible proportion of the stock number. It's the yards without any at all that make me really cross. Horses go wrong all the time. Rescues are stacked to the gills and vets horrified at the number of treatable animals they are asked to put down. Our minimum standards of care need to increase, otherwise we're just exploiting them.

And I guarantee you that if yards only took on a limited number of horses, the price of livery would have to shoot up in order to cover the running costs, and you'd have people complaining about how greedy they are, lol.

And again, it still doesn't really solve the problem of having multiple horses needing the same rehab facility at the same time, unless you go down the road of every horse having its own limited turnout next to owners and individual barns - but again, prices would have to skyrocket to accommodate that.

Yes, horses go wrong all the time but IMO it's not down to the yard owner to manage that for you - if you can't afford to have your own and that means less people own horses then well, maybe that's a good thing in the long run.

I'm not sure what you expect from a yard OP. The type of yard you want does exist but it will be very expensive.

I am well aware of metabolic issues, I've owned native ponies for 20 years. Currently have a retired Welsh pony and a ridden highland pony. The Welsh probably has EMS. The Highland would eat herself to death if I let her.

I manage both on a diy yard with assistance. Exercise for the highland, 4 or 5 times a week hacking, occasionally schooled. Workload increases in spring to compensate for the increased grass. I limit their turnout, weigh and soak hay, they can pick at their straw beds and oat straw available for feeding, they wear muzzles 365 days a year. My yard had 30 plus ponies. YO will fence a small area off for those coming off box rest, we have an indoor school we can use for turning out into if necessary for 30 mins or so.

As a horse owner it is down to me, not yard owner, to manage their weight. It is completely achievable with good management. All ponies need turnout. Nothing needs 24/7 turnout. And by managing grazing times and forage (soaking hay) AND exercise you can manage weight. And if you can't do that then maybe horse ownership is not for you? They are time-consuming, expensive money pits. You need both first then start making demands of the equine industry to accommodate your demands.

@HighlandCowbag yep, I think the key is DIY livery if you have a “complex” horse - because then you’re fully in charge of where the horse is at any given time, and how much grazing access they have. And if the yard can’t accommodate what you need then ultimately your options are to find a new yard, sell or PTS. That sounds really callous I know, but it’s the reality.

Horses are just so so expensive and too many people get them without thinking about how they would cope in emergencies or if the horse was sick - yard owners can only provide so much and manage so much.

But again, you've got the facilities and support from YO available so you can manage. I'm talking about yards that don't support that (as is my experience).

Off topic, but look at Gawsworth Track livery for metabolic livery.

You seem to be missing the point that everyone is making.

It's YOUR responsibility as the owner to meet the animals need, not the YO.

My insurers seem quite clear about the legal duty of care that is a shared responsibility between YO and HO?

https://www.seib.co.uk/2024/04/10/duty-of-care-to-equines-as-a-livery-yard-owner/

Well yes, of course yard owners are also responsible for your horses' welfare but as the owner, it's still your responsibility to make sure your horse is being kept somewhere that can meet it's needs in terms of diet, exercise and turnout.

Yes and once you've done your checks to the best of your ability and then discover you've been lied to about what's available to get you in the door, had your vets advice scoffed at, you are then stuffed?

I'm just of the opinion basic rehab facilties (within reason) should be on offer anywhere horses are kept. The costs should be shared between all HOs as any of them might need it, with an extra charge if used.

People may disagree with me, but I'm not sure I'm reading anything here that's really changing my mind. From reading that link it sounds too like change is being considered at government level. I think that's a good thing.