Managing veterinary conditions in livery

[Paddiwack]

If you are on livery where certain management is needed for veterinary conditions - if those cannot be provided by the yard are they in breach of contract? I'm thinking in terms of laminitis and restricted grazing / and services like soaking hay etc. If you have to move because those things are not available, when they've said they would be, do you have to give a full month's notice?

Basically I was given a small bit of yard to use ad hoc, when the grass is too much, but now it's being used by someone else as they say I don't need it (because I manage dpony well and he's not fat 🙄). I'm petrified I won't get it back again if I need it for the frosts. I also know they don't bother with things like rinsing my soaked hay when I've asked for assistance. Nothing specific in contract of course, but I'm thinking of what to include in contract if I move elsewhere, which I'll have to as this has peed me right off! 🤦‍♀️

I think we're just going to go back round in circles if we try and carry this on any further, lol.

It's been a good discussion though and I'm glad it's remained civil - many don't!

And in order to build a yard with turn out pens attached to stables you’d not only have to have a lot of cash upfront but also negotiate your way through the maze of planning permission. New regulations regarding biodiversity net gain came in force in April this year and are complicated and expensive and are being used to clobber small developments much more than large scale projects. On top of that NMW (rightly) has increased along with the hike in employers’ NI contributions so with profit margins for most yards being slim to non-existent I can’t see many yard owners being able to afford those kinds of upgrades.

Which is where our governing bodies need to step up and challenge planners to recognise the importance and benefits of a sustainable equestrian industry and support viable businesses. Else we're just looking at having a larger equine welfare crisis on our hands than we already have and an industry that dies a slow death under the spotlight. Perhaps those that really can't upgrade cease trading and make way for those that can.

Livery yards are a business. They need to make money in order to survive. What you are suggesting is just not viable.

Exactly. I'm really not sure it's a case of "current owners closing and new ones taking over". In my area, we've lost several riding schools and livery yards in the past few years and there doesn't seem to be any rush for new ones to open in their spot.

I know two owners who have closed down and both have said it's financial. The costs are just astronomical and people aren't able or willing to pay the prices needed to cover even the basics anymore. One had her livery yard at home and now just keeps her own horses there and has turned the old arena into an extra field to help with rotation, the other business has been turned into some kind of holiday centre for treks but will no longer be offering private livery.

Can I ask you a question OP? Why don’t you have your own yard? Why not create your dream yard?

I'd love to, if I won the lottery! I think the industry is in dire straits and needs an overhaul in regs and support nationally and from local authorities before I'd even consider it in anycase. I don't blame people for pulling out and quitting. Fewer people can afford horses these days, but it's still an important industry for lots of reasons. It somehow needs to adapt to the times. It's encouraging more track systems are popping up though. I'm hoping that's indicative of a market.

So you are saying that you don't have your own yard with all the facilities that you want, because of money. Yet you want the industry regulated so that those facilities are standard. So you expect yard owners to pay for those facilities for multiple horses... How do you reckon you'd be able to afford livery on those yards?

So you’re saying yard owners should get loans to do all these improvements to their yards, and think they’ll quickly make their money bank. Why not do a business plan and get yourself a loan to buy a yard?

I keep saying the same thing- pick a yard that suits you! I always show the hard standing on our yard and mention that it can be used for lami or box rest as well as in bad weather. Our yard has good parts and bad parts. People have to choose what works for them. It makes us virtually no money, we have a couple of liveries for company for ours and to keep the grass down.

(ps, I find a lot of horse people think they know a lot about grass management and equine conditions when they really don’t. I have had a few demands from liveries that would be dangerous for their horses).

The costs would go up as they should and people would have to adjust to the true costs of a raised minimum standard. Basing a business on 100% of animals all being fit and never needing box rest or small turnout just doesn't sit right with me. I imagine those that take those places are either desperate or ignorant about what they'd do if they suddenly need it. Or are happy pts'ing animals that could live with otherwise manageable conditions.

I wouldn't be able to set up a yard as I don't have the means for a capital or asset investment. No-one could without that, so it's a bit of a non-argument. It doesn't mean I can't have an interest in industry standards.

As already said upthread, introducing new standards for any new equestrian enterprises might be a way forward, and if a yard is otherwise feasible and there's a demonstrable need in a local area, perhaps the governing bodies could introduce a grant or loan scheme for improvements. Others that can't will just die out, much like they are doing?

But it needs a commitment from governing bodies and local planners to work out the right role and standards for the equestrian industry in any area.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with putting an animal to sleep if veterinary care is unaffordable or not viable.

Many horses (and dogs, cats etc) are over treated.

Delayed euthanasia is one of the biggest animal welfare concerns in this country.

I do agree some are left far too long. But mixed with that is the easy way out, which can easily be abused if it just feels like too much hard work, and I'm talking basic rehab for accidents and treatable injuries and conditions. Grass liveries imo need somewhere for basic rehab too. Even farm animals destined for slaughter are likely to be brought to a barn for treatment as needed. I don't understand how people can even want a horse if they know they can't provide that. I'm certain people only end up keeping horses at such places out of desperation or complete ignorance. I imagine the turnover is high too though, so surely it makes sense to look after your liveries?

I'm really grateful for those emgaging with this thread - I'm saying things here I haven't the balls to say aloud in horsey circles, because it's stupidly controversial and gossip is rife ,and it's good to hear things from a different perspective.

And that's where I want to see the relevant bodies step in and regs changed, because my money is on HOs often feeling desperate or forced to put up or shut up, for fear of being labelled a trouble maker. They are likely the ones moving from place to place trying to find somewhere better. YOs too need support in making improvements though, that's for sure.

But a lot of people don't want or need this- I'm lucky that the yard I'm on would allow me 24/7 turn out all year if I wanted- as it is I'm 24/7 in the summer, and in at night in winter, because this is what suits me and my horse. I wouldn't want him stood in for days with only a small surfaced yard for exercise. To me, turnout in a herd for part of the day, every day, is my number one priority- and the fields are managed carefully so that this is possible.

I will also say that the yard is true DIY, and so if you want soaked hay or similar, you obviously have to sort it yourself. I get that not everyone can manage DIY, but I have always wanted to manage my horse in my own way- and it works for us!

But when looking for yards, I've always prioritized turnout above all else- and I'm lucky I'm in a part of the country where I can find it.

I do think whilst equine obesity is a growing problem, on all the yards I've been on, there have only been one or two ponies with metabolic conditions. I know there are specialist yards in the area with track systems etc which cater to this. I do think laminitic ponies are still a minority, and therefore yards can't be set up in a way that solely caters to these ponies, because most other horses would struggle!

Should you be let out of your contract early? Well, perhaps yes. But I don't think all yards need to cater to every horse or be set up in a specific way to be good yards and high welfare.

Oh, and just to add, I think most liveries do have the option to vote with their feet if they're unhappy with the standard of care on a yard. In my experience, the good yards always have a waiting list a mile long and can be selective of who they take when a space comes up- and the bad yards are always on facebook advertising for business! So the yard owners who really don't meet the standard do end up either closing down, or having to improve their services to the minimum standard people will accept!

That's totally fair enough @Postapocalypticcowgirl, but it sounds like you have a stable so could keep in if needed box-rest? What would you do if you had a lameness issue requiring box rest and the vet said needed turnout in a small area before rejoining the herd? Maybe it's just my experience, but there are an astonishing number of yards in my area that don't facilitate this.

Would having a pen attached to your stable for nights in over winter not be something you'd like for your pony if you had the option? What if your pony developed joint issues and standing in overnight in winter didn't do them any good?

I'm not saying all horses need daily use of a pen or small turnout BTW, just that there should be a reasonable percentage available, proportionate to the total number of horses kept at the yard, so that there is one available for any horse if needed. Ditto with facilities to soak hay as and when.

If good places have waiting lists then there is a market for them - and this is where poorer quality yards need support from governing bodies to improve. It's too late after the event to suddenly find yourself in need of rehab and there not be any spaces available due to long waiting lists. This has been my experience too and why I'm at the mercy of YOs who say xyz and don't mean it, while I wait for a space to come up. It's an exceptionally precarious position to find yourself in - and fwiw it happened to me through sheer bad luck, which can happen to anyone. Maybe it's the sort of thing most don't think about til it happens to them, but it's left me feeling regs should be changed to ensure yards can cope with reasonable veterinary emergencies and short-term rehab, for any horse in their care, when a prognosis is manageable or good.

What governing bodies do you think will step in?

The BHS, BEF and Defra could update it's guidance to be more specific?

Could I ask, how much are you paying per week for your livery, and what does that include / what area / how big is the farm / are other farming practices carried out / how many horses there?

Realistically, those small pens behind the stables in the photo are pretty useless - they won't walk around any more than if stabled, the concrete doesn't give them the opportunity to carry out any horsey behaviours, and they can't even lie down or roll there. The bedding would get dragged around, and wet in bad weather, and the door in the rear wall wouldn't allow for a bed that could be banked up in / allow space for the horse to lie down.

So, if Defra, the BHS and FEI decide that they're going to legislate that all livery yards have to provide penned hardstanding behind each stable, a tracked system and hay soaking facilities, most yards would have to close down. Where I am, the position of the stables wouldn't allow for it (hedge behind, then a stream), the cost of knocking down and re-building elsewhere would be huge, and the loss of habitat taken by concreting over an area behind the new stables would be contrary to the current DEFRA rules. Planning permission would be costly, and almost certainly refused - the majority of local councils don't rate the equestrian world as something to value. If you've tried to get road warning signs up near bridleways, you'd know that!

Currently, in my opinion, the councils are trying to reduce land used for horses (and agriculture) to get it freed up for building houses - this is how they make their money, and they don't care that once developed, that land can never come back. Many livery yards rely on farms with diversification, once a farm has change of use from farming to solely equestrian, they lose all support from DEFRA, but to remain 'agricultural', they can't lose fields to unproductive (in the sense of food production etc) areas.

Really, as a horse owner, it is your responsibility to maintain your horse's weight - and the majority of the time this is done more by giving plenty of exercise, not over rugging and over feeding than by never letting them see a blade of grass. We've had many natives, none have been on restricted grazing, at most they're just managed by going onto the field following sheep / other horses so they can't gorge, but have been exercised at least 5 days a week, for a good amount of time, at a suitable intensity. Buying low nutritional value meadow hay, avoiding feeds which are high in starch and sugar etc an getting them to actually work for their feed.