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The tack room

Discuss horse riding and ownership on our Horse forum.

Is it true about Charlotte Dujardin withdrawing from the Olympics?

1000 replies

Freakwave897 · 23/07/2024 16:21

Or is it fake news?

It’s so disappointing if true…

I am a huge fan and can’t quite believe what I am hearing.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
oakleaffy · 25/07/2024 14:49

@AvacadoBathroomSuite I doubt very much that anyone would follow through with “ Death threats”

It’s just keyboard warriors.

CDJ has the money for good security- No yard with valuable horses and tack in it will be without very good security these days.

AvacadoBathroomSuite · 25/07/2024 14:52

HornungTheHelpful · 25/07/2024 14:49

My point @AvacadoBathroomSuite is that this isn't something that helps to protect animals. It's just a way to revel in someone's downfall and pat one's self on the back for being on the right side of an issue that one does not care sufficiently about to actually do something that will help (and I know nothing about you - if you say you do act then I accept that you do, but many on here won't and will somehow think this has the same effect.)

But why can’t they have this discussion? It’s a discussion forum. There are people on here who have learnt about what’s happening via this thread - which is a positive thing as more people being made aware of animal abuse is better. And again, who cares if some people just pay themselves on the back? Others will read this and decide to be more proactive. Even if ONE person becomes educated then it’s had a positive impact.

AvacadoBathroomSuite · 25/07/2024 14:52

oakleaffy · 25/07/2024 14:49

@AvacadoBathroomSuite I doubt very much that anyone would follow through with “ Death threats”

It’s just keyboard warriors.

CDJ has the money for good security- No yard with valuable horses and tack in it will be without very good security these days.

I doubt it too, but that is what others are saying is a possibility and therefore we shouldn’t discuss things at it’s putting the family at risk.

OneReformedCharacter · 25/07/2024 14:54

HornungTheHelpful · 25/07/2024 12:42

I’m not trying to silence anyone - it would be pointless as I’m not the internet police. This is my opinion: it’s easy to care about welfare when all you have to do is say one woman is a monster on an internet forum. So I don’t place any value on the standards of people who do that, or care only about this “form” of cruelty.

What I am saying is twofold: (1) my opinion is that the hypocrites on here - who only care about this because it’s high profile - should shut up; unless (2) they’re prepared to put their money where their mouth is by challenging any form of cruelty that can be seen on any yard or at any competition venue in the country. I’ve helpfully given some examples so they can do just that, if they weren’t aware of other forms of cruelty.

But I add this as well. In my view, negotiating a relationship with a horse is fraught. We risk behaving inappropriately any time we engage, particularly where our engagement is under-informed. The people on here screaming have all almost certainly been cruel at some point, most likely without meaning to be or knowing (I’m sure I have and I strive to minimise that. But yes, I’ve had a saddle that was causing my horse pain - could I have noticed that sooner, if I knew more about anatomy and saddlery?). They can’t touch the perpetrator here, but they can instead of wasting their time screaming about it use that time to learn more to minimise their negative impact on the horses they come into contact with. If there is nothing more they can learn (and there will be more - there always is) instead of being self righteous on the internet, the next time they see a person too large or too heavy competing a horse, they can report it to the venue. They can report rough riding. But they don’t. What I’m saying is that being outraged at this doesn’t help horse welfare. Educating ourselves, having a realistic view of our knowledge, abilities and physical impact on our horses, being brave enough to speak out can.

So instead of condemning someone who will be dealt with by the relevant authority, let’s go stroke our horses, and maybe read a few pages of a book on saddlery, or horse anatomy or even communication. Take the time that we’re wasting here to meal prep to support weight loss, spend 10 extra minutes in the gym to become stronger and more balanced to help out the horses we ride. If we care, that does much, much more for horses.

So what you’re saying is “get your house in order”. And if you think your house is in order then start eyeing up your neighbours but otherwise mind your own business.

Fuck. That.

Call out the queen of dressage. Make enough noise that the rest of the upper level elite realise most of their fans are disgusted by this behaviour and that it won’t be tolerated.

I have no idea why you think a slightly overweight rider plodding around on a well loved horse is in any way similar or equal to what may well be systemic abuse of high level competition horses, and was definitely abuse for this particular horse

Standupcitizen · 25/07/2024 14:54

We can't talk about what CD did because it might put her child at risk? Because .. We are talking on an internet forum?

That's a novel way of trying to get people to shut up.

godmum56 · 25/07/2024 14:55

AvacadoBathroomSuite · 25/07/2024 14:46

From people sending death threats and such. People can get very extreme. I recall a group of activities stealing the corpse of the matriarch of a family who bred guinea pigs for animal testing…but any such thing is unacceptable. It’s about focusing on protecting the horses and showing that abuse is not acceptable, so a ban for life for both entering and owning horses would be adequate.

and again, if she hadn't been an abuser, there wouldn't be such a reaction, which i do not support in any way....and yes the child is innocent....but she brought this on her child by her behaviour.

oakleaffy · 25/07/2024 14:57

AvacadoBathroomSuite · 25/07/2024 14:52

I doubt it too, but that is what others are saying is a possibility and therefore we shouldn’t discuss things at it’s putting the family at risk.

People trying to close down discussing animal cruelty- That won’t happen.

CDJ is captain of her own demise here- Had she not bullied a horse gratuitously, she’d not be in this position now.

The video deeply shocked me- I was imagining a couple of smacks with a crop behind girth for napping or similar - And people I know are equally shocked by her actions.

HornungTheHelpful · 25/07/2024 14:58

@Freakwave897 - I'm sorry you find my post sexist and ageist. I am a middle-aged woman so don't have anything against the group in general. However, my experience has been that - particularly since there are far more female than male amateurs - it is more often women than men. But that is of course anecdotal. But yes, I've seen my fair share of unbalanced younger people, since you mention it. So even anecdotally I'm wrong there.

You say:
"Many of the things you list in your post which undoubtedly cause horses harm, are carried out as a result of ignorance by amateurs who don’t know any better, and that’s completely different to wilful acts of cruelty carried out by one of the top professionals in the sport who has unmatched skills and resources.

There is absolutely no excuse for it."

It makes no difference to the horse if it is deliberate or not. And one cannot "fix" CDJ's treatment of horses here. But one can get some more lessons, get one's tack checked more frequently. Abuse through ignorance is far more readily solved because it is likely that once people know they are causing suffering they will likely change it if they can.

From a human perspective one is much more reprehensible than the other, but from the perspective of the horse, all they care about is that it stops. So focussing where it can be stopped, where there is a will to stop it does much more for horses than dealing with the behaviour that from the human perspective is far worse (which is not to say that it shouldn't be dealt with - let's do it, but again, my point is that's not what is happening here).

Freakwave897 · 25/07/2024 15:04

oakleaffy · 25/07/2024 14:44

Why on earth would CDJ’s cruelty to horse/s result in harm to her child?

One hopes the child won’t receive corporal punishment.
edit: Hiding behind a toddler now is very lame.

Edited

oakleaffy

I’ve agreed with so many of your posts in this thread but no one is hiding behind a toddler.

Can you not imagine how the complete collapse of a mother’s career and reputation - even when self-inflicted - could potentially affect their child?

I watched the Amanda Abington (sp?) interview on Channel 4 last night and she said she received serious threats not only to herself but to her teen children. Really nasty stuff saying she was being watched and they hoped she died of cancer including vicious comments about her family. She was visibly shaken by it and she said she is still afraid to go out and was still worried about the cumulative effects on her dc. And she was just the whistleblower!

There are some really unbalanced weirdos out there and this thread, while hopefully more balanced, is part of the debate so we need to be mindful of the innocent bystanders in this situation.

OP posts:
oakleaffy · 25/07/2024 15:15

CDJ definitely won’t be the only person abusing horses on this way.

I lost a work experience job once whistleblowing against a dog being throttled so hard he evacuated his bowels by a head vet nurse at an animal hospital.

I had a good reference, but they said it was best if i wasn’t to work with the head nurse again.

I doubt the collie’s owner realised why he was terrified of the vets after that.

The nurse got another job.

AvacadoBathroomSuite · 25/07/2024 15:24

oakleaffy · 25/07/2024 15:15

CDJ definitely won’t be the only person abusing horses on this way.

I lost a work experience job once whistleblowing against a dog being throttled so hard he evacuated his bowels by a head vet nurse at an animal hospital.

I had a good reference, but they said it was best if i wasn’t to work with the head nurse again.

I doubt the collie’s owner realised why he was terrified of the vets after that.

The nurse got another job.

Oh my gosh, I’m so sorry. I have been in this situation where you report the abuse and it comes back on you. One person told me I didn’t know what I was talking about. It’s so devastating and unfortunately for those in power, they always get the benefit of the doubt.

oakleaffy · 25/07/2024 15:28

Carl Hester has signed a letter condemning abuse by CDJ

Am on dog walk at moment so no battery to link

The Guardian has the story.

Standupcitizen · 25/07/2024 15:37

That's interesting. I wonder if he will be cutting ties with her.

XelaM · 25/07/2024 15:39

The 🐀 abondoning ship. There is absolutely no way that Carl didn't know what she was doing (and most likely doing the exact same).

GradGirl · 25/07/2024 15:55

Interestingly, he’s removed the photo of the pair of them on the ‘yard’ tab of the CH webpage. It’s been there for a long time, was still there this morning.

Another2Cats · 25/07/2024 15:55

Stravaig · 24/07/2024 21:05

As a non-horse person, who has watched the video.

The behaviour shown is not a rare error of judgement, or someone momentarily losing control. That is absolutely relaxed, casual, routine, something CDJ has done a thousand times before.

Those speculating about motives and sabotage. My first thoughts are a then-underage rider, mid-teens, distressed at what is happening, but unsure what to do. Possibly conditioned to think it is normal and fine. Or whose parents, who pay for everything, are up to their neck in it, and possibly even the vile cackler. Or whose family are non-riders, unable to advise or support.

A teenager, unsure, distressed, idealistic, unsupported, but now of legal age, awash in riding buzz about CDJ and Olympics and medals and damehoods, in turmoil and disgusted and now determined to do something. Brave.

That's my interpretation, but again, not a rider.

Whatever their motives, I'm thankful.

"My first thoughts are a then-underage rider, mid-teens, distressed at what is happening, but unsure what to do. Possibly conditioned to think it is normal and fine."

"A teenager, unsure, distressed, idealistic, unsupported, but now of legal age, awash in riding buzz about CDJ and Olympics and medals and damehoods, in turmoil and disgusted and now determined to do something. Brave."

"That's my interpretation,..."

You're not wrong.

There was an interview in The Horse & Hound yesterday with the lawyer involved in this and he basically said exactly what you've said here.

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/charlotte-dujardin-lawyer-clarifies-key-points-864795

Although, the whistle blower was actually the girl filming rather than the actual rider in the video, she was a former student of Dujardin's. The video is said to be from two and a half years ago so she would likely have been aged around 16 then.

Dutch lawyer clarifies key points in complaint against Charlotte Dujardin

Following the suspension of Charlotte Dujardin by the FEI, Horse & Hound has spoken to Stephan Wensing who was employed to file the official complaint

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/charlotte-dujardin-lawyer-clarifies-key-points-864795

Another2Cats · 25/07/2024 16:01

I haven't noticed it on the thread but The Guardian are now reporting that Carl Hester has also come out and condemned her:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/jul/25/charlotte-dujardin-condemned-mentor-gb-teammate-abusing-horse-carl-hester-paris-olympic-games

Charlotte Dujardin condemned by mentor and GB teammate for abusing horse

Charlotte Dujardin’s mentor and teammate Carl Hester has signed a letter “universally condemning” her for abusing her horse and supporting the decision to suspend her for six months.

Hester, who will compete in his seventh Olympics in Paris next week, was one of 10 board members of the International Dressage Riders Club to sign the letter after a video was released of Dujardin whipping a horse 24 times in a minute.

[...]

The fact that Hester has co-signed the letter is especially significant given he not only helped Dujardin in the early stages of her career, but she trains in his yard. The 57-year-old Hester also bought Dujardin’s horse, Valegro, for £4,000 which she then rode to win gold at London 2012 and Rio in 2016.

Charlotte Dujardin condemned by mentor and GB teammate for abusing horse

Charlotte Dujardin’s mentor and teammate Carl Hester has signed a letter ‘universally condemning’ her for abusing her horse

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/jul/25/charlotte-dujardin-condemned-mentor-gb-teammate-abusing-horse-carl-hester-paris-olympic-games

AvacadoBathroomSuite · 25/07/2024 16:07

She trains in his yard but no one has ever seen her behaving this way and told him? Is he really claiming he had no idea? Surely if she was behaving this way on his premises he would be aware? Which means she either doesn’t use these tactics when there /any more or he does know and is lying, which I’m would be a risky game as surely someone else could come out and refute that?

Freakwave897 · 25/07/2024 16:12

HornungTheHelpful · 25/07/2024 14:58

@Freakwave897 - I'm sorry you find my post sexist and ageist. I am a middle-aged woman so don't have anything against the group in general. However, my experience has been that - particularly since there are far more female than male amateurs - it is more often women than men. But that is of course anecdotal. But yes, I've seen my fair share of unbalanced younger people, since you mention it. So even anecdotally I'm wrong there.

You say:
"Many of the things you list in your post which undoubtedly cause horses harm, are carried out as a result of ignorance by amateurs who don’t know any better, and that’s completely different to wilful acts of cruelty carried out by one of the top professionals in the sport who has unmatched skills and resources.

There is absolutely no excuse for it."

It makes no difference to the horse if it is deliberate or not. And one cannot "fix" CDJ's treatment of horses here. But one can get some more lessons, get one's tack checked more frequently. Abuse through ignorance is far more readily solved because it is likely that once people know they are causing suffering they will likely change it if they can.

From a human perspective one is much more reprehensible than the other, but from the perspective of the horse, all they care about is that it stops. So focussing where it can be stopped, where there is a will to stop it does much more for horses than dealing with the behaviour that from the human perspective is far worse (which is not to say that it shouldn't be dealt with - let's do it, but again, my point is that's not what is happening here).

I agree with you that it makes no difference - to an extent - from a horse’s perspective what the cause of pain or discomfort is. Although I would also argue that a horse, being acutely attuned to the herd, can sense threat and danger and knows whether its owner is trustworthy or not and whether or not its environment is safe. And that will in turn affect its stress levels and its propensity to suffer from stress related behaviours (such as crib biting) or illness (gastric ulcers).

If you are a well intentioned but ignorant owner or rider, as you say, you can improve and become more knowledgeable ie there is hope that the horse’s treatment will improve and in many cases it does, as we all start from a place of ignorance don’t we?

In the case of someone like CD, who we now know has malign intentions, the reverse is true. She has all the knowledge in the world and no intention of using it for good. That leads to a hopeless position for the horse.

No one is suggesting that we shouldn’t all make efforts to improve horse welfare and eliminate bad practice wherever it comes from , at every level of equestrianism. But someone with malign intentions will not be motivated to do that. Whereas someone who over-rugs their horse overnight because they are afraid they will be cold, will be horrified to find it sweating in the stable the next morning and make adjustments. So intentions do matter.

I’d also argue that, in addition to the many problematic issues you raise, horse welfare among amateurs is improving in many areas too, as we learn more about herd interaction, behavioural science, over-feeding and it’s connection to laminitis, different ways of keeping horses such as paradise tracks, natural land management, bitless riding, the bare foot movement and the many horse- centred training programmes available. Not many of these things were discussed forty years ago when I first started riding.

Even when these practices are implemented incorrectly, at least an effort is being made to study sleep and grazing patterns , communication signals etc and many owners are trying to accommodate the three fs and manage horses in ways that mimic their natural environment and suit their characteristics.

(Btw, I’m a middle-aged woman too, I have even been accused of being a hag with a flag 😂 as women form the majority of amateur riders, surely it’s only logical that they should take credit for participating in the above positive changes too, as well as the instances of poor riding you accuse them of? Poor riding definitely exists and some riders are unfit, unbalanced and too heavy, but if their intentions are good, they will learn to do better. )

OP posts:
godmum56 · 25/07/2024 16:13

you have to wonder who taught her to do it......as an aside, I hate to see the new ear covers that riders are using. I get the mesh ones to protect from flies but the rigid ones that appear to prevent the horse moving its ears look most uncomfortable for the horse.

Freakwave897 · 25/07/2024 16:17

Another2Cats · 25/07/2024 16:01

I haven't noticed it on the thread but The Guardian are now reporting that Carl Hester has also come out and condemned her:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/jul/25/charlotte-dujardin-condemned-mentor-gb-teammate-abusing-horse-carl-hester-paris-olympic-games

Charlotte Dujardin condemned by mentor and GB teammate for abusing horse

Charlotte Dujardin’s mentor and teammate Carl Hester has signed a letter “universally condemning” her for abusing her horse and supporting the decision to suspend her for six months.

Hester, who will compete in his seventh Olympics in Paris next week, was one of 10 board members of the International Dressage Riders Club to sign the letter after a video was released of Dujardin whipping a horse 24 times in a minute.

[...]

The fact that Hester has co-signed the letter is especially significant given he not only helped Dujardin in the early stages of her career, but she trains in his yard. The 57-year-old Hester also bought Dujardin’s horse, Valegro, for £4,000 which she then rode to win gold at London 2012 and Rio in 2016.

Edited

Gosh. That’s significant and interesting.

CH must be pretty confident that his personal training methods are above board to put his name to that, especially as it will presumably lead to the fracturing of his close and long-standing relationship with CD and he and his fellow team members will be under intense scrutiny during the OGs.

OP posts:
Freakwave897 · 25/07/2024 16:22

oakleaffy · 25/07/2024 15:15

CDJ definitely won’t be the only person abusing horses on this way.

I lost a work experience job once whistleblowing against a dog being throttled so hard he evacuated his bowels by a head vet nurse at an animal hospital.

I had a good reference, but they said it was best if i wasn’t to work with the head nurse again.

I doubt the collie’s owner realised why he was terrified of the vets after that.

The nurse got another job.

Christ that’s awful Oakleafy

OP posts:
oakleaffy · 25/07/2024 16:22

godmum56 · 25/07/2024 16:13

you have to wonder who taught her to do it......as an aside, I hate to see the new ear covers that riders are using. I get the mesh ones to protect from flies but the rigid ones that appear to prevent the horse moving its ears look most uncomfortable for the horse.

Horse’s ears are such mobile things, forever swivelling about, and are a good barometer as to how a horse is feeling.
Ears should ideally be “ Free” to prick or swivel - or even flatten.

XelaM · 25/07/2024 16:23

Freakwave897 · 25/07/2024 16:17

Gosh. That’s significant and interesting.

CH must be pretty confident that his personal training methods are above board to put his name to that, especially as it will presumably lead to the fracturing of his close and long-standing relationship with CD and he and his fellow team members will be under intense scrutiny during the OGs.

He didn't have a choice, did he? How could he have refused to sign that letter? It would have looked pretty damning. I could bet my house on him knowing all about her methods and using them himself. He probably publicly condemns her but in his horsey circles badmouths the whilstleblower, as they all probably do in private. I'm only involved with show-jumping world at a low junior level but even I can see that the horse world is tiny where everyone knows everyone and almost all of them are quite awful people.

godmum56 · 25/07/2024 16:24

I do get that if you ride or are involved in riding (as I was in my younger days), they yes you should be learning, doing the best you can and being keen to do better, but the FEI has recognised, in its Social Licence concept, that society in general has the power and the right to judge what riders and other equine related interested parties do. Its no defence to say "you don't ride, therefore you don't understand" "its not your business" and so on. We know that places like MN are monitored by the meeja so I think its absolutely right that this stuff is discussed here and people express their opinions. No it shouldn't be the only thing that people do but don't dismiss it entirely as handwringing by people who will feel better and not do anything else.

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