Is it true about Charlotte Dujardin withdrawing from the Olympics?

[Freakwave897]

Or is it fake news?

It’s so disappointing if true…

I am a huge fan and can’t quite believe what I am hearing.

Yes when I was learning to read a horse as a novice rider I was told about watching ears. I live near the New Forest and often walk near the ponies, its a useful skill!

Godmum56

i think this will be a kick up the bum for competitive British dressage. As I said, been following this story for a while and so far the people who have been named and shamed with photos and video's have been Europeans. There has (or it seemed to me from what I have read) an underlying sense of "Oh those awful europeans, we don't do that in the UK" Well that's put an end to that!

Just wanted to say I completely agree.

Also agree completely with this. Well said.

I agree with this 100%

Thanks for posting this ToxicChristmas

@Freakwave897 I agree entirely! Let's give the middle aged women credit (we mostly deserve it 🤣). Thanks for your interesting and insightful discussion here. While this is a sad subject it has been great to be able to discuss it with you civilly and productively.

I’ve read some of the threats online and they are absolutely appalling. There are plenty of nutters with keyboards, just because most don’t act doesn’t mean all don’t. By all means express your views fully, but be aware that those making serious threats don’t need more encouragement. I would hate to see great discussions here hijacked by that.

As an aside, Carl Hester has co-signed a letter condemning CDs actions. Published a few hrs ago in the media.

I agree with you 100% @Freakwave897 that actually it does matter what the source of pain is. Many intelligent animals develop relationships too; if the source of pain is their owner then that may be potentially more damaging than if it was an outside source.

and we believe him because?

@godmum56 that's a fair point! I'm still not sure there aren't more effective ways to bring about change.

@oakleaffy don't know if they are the ones in question, but we have some more "rigid" looking ones (ours are the acoustic ones) for one horse - he goes beautifully in them and ears move as freely as if naked. I wouldn't use them absent a specific issue though.

@OneReformedCharacter if your comment about getting your own house in order was directed at me, then no that isn't what I'm saying. You don't have to be perfect to criticise others (I'm certainly not and I've been on here criticising others while openly saying I've fucked up) but I think there are more effective things to do than criticise on here. And one of them is to make sure you aren't being inadvertently cruel yourself and where you are, to take all measures to make sure you don't do it again. My beef is I suspect many will be outraged here and do nothing else whatever. But I've been encouraged by recent posts to think I've been wrong about this. Which is actually fantastic.

@ToxicChristmas that's great, thank you. The BD form for reporting welfare incidents is at the bottom of the page linked here: https://www.britishdressage.co.uk/about-us/equine-welfare/

@HornungTheHelpful
HornungTheHelpful · Today 16:52
** that's a fair point! I'm still not sure there aren't more effective ways to bring about change.

** don't know if they are the ones in question, but we have some more "rigid" looking ones (ours are the acoustic ones) for one horse - he goes beautifully in them and ears move as freely as if naked. I wouldn't use them absent a specific issue though.

I am sure there are more effective ways to make change but surely we should all do what we can?

Thank you for your comment about the ear covers and I get that some horses will need such help. For me and I will say its a its a fine line thing.....should a horse be competing if the only way to do it is to use such things? When I was riding they didn't exist so I freely admit my ignorance.

@godmum56 - who says we’re using them to compete? 🤣 I see what you’re saying, but for me the ears do no harm, don’t restrict the horse and don’t seem to offer an unfair advantage. BD appear to agree as they allow them. That being said when we are out competing, we may or may not be using them. Things change and the horse in question is young so who knows.

I once had to spend 3 months working with a woman who thought riding was inherently cruel, and that horses specifically but animals generally should only exist if wild. She hated me - even though I never brought it up. I wasn’t massively keen on her and was horrified by her viewpoint. Years later I get it more. If we interfere at all are we being cruel? I don’t agree but once you say yes you can use a snaffle or double bridle, we’re making arbitrary decisions about what’s ok. I’m glad I don’t have to draw that line for swathes of people, only for myself.

But equally I don’t take issue with people who disagree with me on it. When it comes to ears or no ears I genuinely think it’s marginal. If I couldn’t ride with them, so be it. Personally i judge them to make this particular horse a little more comfortable. Does that mean he should just never be ridden? I don’t think so, but maybe I’m wrong. I don’t rule it out. I’m doing the best I can based on what I know and trying to inform myself as much as possible.

what did you used to compete in @godmum56?

Sorry, the should the horse compete thing wasn't aimed at you. I was never even within spitting distance of being good enough to compete. Best thing I did EVER was to enter a very casual dressage day that the stables did. The stables had several horses and ponies who knew enough to do a basic dressage round, and they worked all theirs a bit at dressage exercises to benefit their musculature, collection and so on. Equally students were expected to have light hands and give light aids from the get go. For real newbies, the trainer used to put "suitcase handles" on the front of the saddle so if you needed something to hold onto, it was there and could be used with the reins without catching the horse's mouth. From my experience with those horses and the NF ponies, i think its possible for them to "like" people.....maybe they have been bred to.....The ones I learned on liked to come out of their field or loosebox for a lesson, liked being fussed, liked riding out...seemed to enjoy having their brains engaged....so if making the world less noisy for the horse means that it can enjoy ridden life then fine. I think my line is that the aid should make life better for the horse, not easier for the rider....but yeah fine line.....

I personally know a coach whose methods are worse than what was shown in Dujardin's video but I don't have any video evidence (as the coach tells everyone to put away their phones) when they whip horses, put very big riders on tiny ponies if they misbehave to teach them a lesson and they have even been known to throw poles at horses. Horses at their yard get almost zero turn-out to boot. They no longer teach my daughter (as we couldn't allow our pony to be abused) so there is no way for us to take any videos to get proof and they are also very well-connected in the horse world, so it's not a good idea to accuse them without having any evidence. All their students and their parents think those methods are normal so no one would say anything. One of the students who saw the Dujardin video felt sorry for Dujardin because she sees harsher methods being used in her own lessons.

@godmum56 that’s a good place to draw the line. Thanks. It sounds like you were a considerate rider who loved the horses. That makes you a good rider

Thanks HornungtheHelpful, ditto 😀😀

It’s good we can debate these issues in a civilised way - we all want the same thing for horses in the end . 👍

Let’s hope this thread has raised a tiny bit of awareness AND let’s hope people take action where they see mistreatment taking place whether that has come about through ignorance or malice.

have you done google and youtube searches on their name? If you know then others do.

Please report it

Please report it

This is absolutely appalling.
Assuming the yard is in a City if there is no turnout?

That alone is not good. Horses need turnout to be happy and healthy.
Someone surely could go 'undercover' and expose these awful practices.

Putting a heavy rider on a naughty pony- how is that going to solve anything?

But we have all met the swaggering adults who likes to get on small ponies ''to sort them out''. One pony was whipped on the poll repeatedly for napping by an adult man.

Makes my blood absolutely boil.

@Toohot2trot Report it to whom? They're a BSJA judge. If you google them the social media posts are all gushy about "kindness" (they have some absolutely horrible people at that yard) and the parents all commenting on what a fantastic team they are and even how "spoiled" their horses are 😖 Harsh training methods are normalised so no one would ever say anything against the coach.

Can you call someone like The RSPCA (I don’t have much faith in them to be honest and have seen some shit behaviour from them in the past but) and make them aware and maybe they can launch an investigation? They will have methods and can do the donkey work, if you excuse the pun.

Its better than saying nothing?

CDJ learned her training of horses at the feet of Carl Hester and they have worked closely together for many years. I’d be very surprised if he didn’t know about her ‘training methods’. Would she have been doing this if it was the kind of thing he might disapprove of? I can’t help but wonder that. I only ever competed dressage at a low level, but have always loved it. Despite what many think, the horses are not doing anything unnatural. All of the movement seen in dressage can be seen being performed by horses freely moving in the field. In dressage we see them harnessed and honed into patterns by horses strong and fit enough to perform them that way. They can be trained and performed at the highest level using only kindness, but human being are demanding, impatient and ambitious. This leads to cruelty of animals and people (see Strictly Come Dancing). The cruelty meted out by Anky Van Grunsven (previous Dutch Gold Medal Olympian) to her dressage horses was heartbreaking. That was many years ago now. Her pupil was also subsequently found to use her cruel methods. It’s angering and depressing in equal measure.

@godmum56 @Toohot2trot @oakleaffy @AvacadoBathroomSuite Thank you - will definitely think about how to report it and to whom. They're not as well-known and powerful as CDJ obviously but still very well-connected in the horse world so it's best to get evidence to ensure something will be done, otherwise it will all be brushed under the carpet.

Thank you to everyone for their contributions to this thread.

The posts are too numerous to keep up with and I have lost track of some but I have read it through from beginning to end at various moments throughout the day and learned a lot.

Thank you to the showjumper down thread who posted about training methods. I can’t find it atm to respond but I really appreciated your input.

And I thought it was a really interesting point made by a pp about reasons why bullies exist in the horse world. I hadn’t heard of the “fear” explanation but sadly it makes sense to me.

Horses are great levellers - and bullies don’t like being shown up. They take non -cooperation in a horse personally and strike back. And those same people are often the bullies on yards as they know in themselves that their methods are inadequate and brutal but their egos are too inflated to take criticism or to be humble and learn, so they lord it over anyone who tries to object.

I have seen incidences of this in riding schools and livery yards. (To be clear, I’ve also seen lots of really amazing teaching and riding and excellent practices too. )

I can imagine the above negative dynamic + pressures of international professional competition could easily add up to toxic sustained abuse.

One common denominator ime was that the overall “tone” of a yard or school always comes from the top. That definitely does not excuse individuals like CD but the management of the sport must take responsibility too, especially if they turned a blind eye to reports of cruelty.

Another pp posted about CD and her phenomenal success with Valegro - Blueberry. Really interesting theory - maybe he was even more of an exceptional horse than we realised? And CD felt under huge pressure to prove it wasn’t a one off and took short cuts which lead to cruel and abusive practices as a result? Not that that is an excuse but it is another reason why the dressage world needs to take a long hard look at its standards and expectations.

We all know that there are some judges who add points for flamboyant movement. And others who do not reward that. This
has been the subject of ongoing debate for a while now. Hopefully this abuse case, horrific though it is, will give the judges and management of the sport, a steer in the right direction.