A few questions - having a crisis!

[NagNagN4g]

I won’t bore you all with the ins and outs but I’m having a massive crisis in my confidence at the moment. There’s a few factors going on... being bullied into doing things I don’t want to do, my horse playing up when doing these things and me now not wanting to ride him.

He’s a rescue cob, a very green 6/7 year old (I didn’t know he was a rescue when I bought him, or just how far behind he was in his education).

So, he’s started bucking when asking for canter (no biggie, I get on with it but it does make me a bit tense)

He’s bolted in an open field (a proper bolt, not a few strides of excitement)

He’s reared and bronced when a horse we were with went out of sight

He’s very forward going, and at the moment I don’t feel safe on him at all.

My first question is, can ridden behaviour change when his field set up has changed? He’s a very very playful, young thing and loves a good run around with his mates. Unfortunately a new horse came and he turned on him (very out of character, but there’s one mare and 3 geldings and I think he was protecting the mare). So he was taken and put on his own where he’s been for 2 months. I think he’s going stir crazy, and all these ridden behaviours have been since then. I could be completely wrong but he just seems more playful when out hacking as he doesn’t get that out in the field. Am I way off the mark? When my kids run up and down along his fence line he goes nuts, running alongside them, farting, throwing himself around and gets very excited by them!! He didn’t used to do this when he was with the herd.

I broke down on my instructor the other day and it’s caused a shit storm at my yard for various reasons. It’s a very small yard, the lady who runs it is very opinionated, bitchy and two faced. My problem is me being a pleaser, I’ve always gone along with her as I’ve heard how she slags off the other liveries, and I didn’t want to be spoken about like that, so I went along with things and have now got myself in a mess! And it’s worse than ever!!

Could well be a mix of the change and the grass - the weather has been bonkers and the sugars will be all over the shop.

I'd suggest a new yard.

How has what you told your instructor got back to the yard?

The grass he’s been on is knee high, so I’m thinking it might not be the grass? I could be wrong though.

Even longer story, but my instructor and yard owner go back years and have never seen eye to eye but she still teaches her as well and the instructor was really angry by how I felt and what happened (there was an incident out riding which caused the broncing - the yard manager went nuts at me (I didn’t want to jump some logs) yelled at me and generally made me feel like shit - she cantered away from me out of sight without telling me and mine went nuts) and my instructor asked my permission to speak to her and say how upset I was and how it was out of order etc. Yard manager then confronted me and slagged me off to everyone else.

A new yard is something I’m considering, but my horse doesn’t cope with change very well at all, and this one is just convenient to where I live and I get on with everyone else ok. Also it’s like hens teeth as I need grass livery and they’re very hard to come by round here! But I do need to consider it, just not make any rash decisions.

My background so your know I'm not a novice: evented to 3*, p2p. Affiliated dressage. Had rta, now wheelchair user doing v low level dressage and showing. Have 16.1hh ish (see photo)

It could be a number of things and it's probably a combination. I'm assuming you've had his teeth, back and tack checked? Is he in sight of other horses? If not could be be moved to in sight? Is he being exercised regularly and have you cut any hard feed down? Have you tried lunging before you ride? How much ground work do you do with him?

If you want a well mannered horse, you know you have to put the work in, and not just riding him. He needs to know you're in charge and to trust you and that means work on the ground and just being with him. Which will help your confidence too.

Its important to be consistent, and humans are very bad at this. But with a young, green horse it pays dividends.

Think about bitting. What's he in at the moment? Have you tried a Pelham? Gary Witheford (and I) won't use anything but a miller, but they're pretty expensive.

Whatever you do, don't stop. Keep trying, it's the only way to conquer nerves.

Photo!

Bucking in canter to me makes me think pain have you had EVERYTHING checked?
Where abouts in the country are you?

Agree with Boudicca^

A change in field pecking order can affect them really badly. I would say herd dynamics are amongst the most important things for their 'mental health' and feeling threatened or turning aggressive on a newcomer can 100% spill over into behaviour with people or when ridden.

Also if there has been hoolying around in the field then I would be wondering if he's tweaked himself somewhere, the bucking when he goes into canter makes me a bit suspicious about this. Young/green cobs do often buck when going into canter (my mare used to do it every time and still does if not 100% balanced through the transition), but if he used to manage the transition OK and now bucks it could be a sign something's hurting him.

So I'd do a proper MOT, get the saddle fit checked, physio, dentist, vet out and see if there's anything going on. You should get all this done every 6 months or so anyway so nothing lost by doing it. If not then it's probably just him being 6 (can be a 'teenage' age for horses when they get a bit bolshy/naughty) and/or the herd change thing and/or perhaps him feeling particularly fit and well on the summer grass!

As for the yard issues, I'm afraid bossiness/bitchiness and cliques are a bit par for the course and so so common on livery yards. So if it's getting to you then absolutely consider moving but in the meantime I would just put your head down and don't let yourself be bullied. Don't ride out with that woman again if you can help it, cantering off because someone won't jump a log isn't exactly mature/safe behaviour, I'd be avoiding her . She'll probably move on to some new drama soon, people like that always have something going on so if you just ignore the histrionics it'll all blow over soon enough. Not very nice though.

Continuing with lessons with a good instructor is a good idea to build your confidence and could you also get her to ride/school your boy regularly as he's a bit green still, this will probably help him and you! Good luck!

Also, sorry is he turned out completely alone now? Can he even see other horses? If not then it's understandable he's going mad. I know herd dynamics are a nightmare for yards to manage and they understandably don't want others getting kicked or bitten but I really wouldn't be happy with solo turnout as a long term solution for a sociable horse, are there not 1-2 other quiet geldings he can go out with?

I’ve read everything but am just heading out, so will answer properly later, but just a few answers -

His back was done in April (had him done twice since owned him in August)
Teeth also done in April (wolf tooth also removed) (also had done twice since owned)
New saddle also in April (that was an expensive month ) (again this is our second saddle that has been fitted)

Ground work - constantly on it as he was very rude and bargy when I got him, wouldn’t stand at a mounting block, reared on the yard etc! So I do lots of ground work with him and instill manners into him constantly. He’s bit of a puppy dog now but still has it in him so I still work on him with it.

He gets worked 5/6 days a week consistently. 4 days in the school and 1 or 2 hacks a week.

Lunging not very often at all, he pisses off on the lunge and has no idea what he’s doing (again this is part of the “bullying” as I was told I’m doing it all wrong so yard manager took over and he’s got worse and worse, so I now hardly ever do it but will be starting up again once my confidence is back) (as an aside I teach students to lunge so know how to do it - I just have zero self esteem and can’t handle being criticised the way she did)

He’s completely alone and can’t touch any other horses, but in full view of 8 others.

Sorry for brief response, I didn’t want to think I was ignoring you! Thank you all, will respond in more detail later on

You say he doesn't cope well with change, but going from herd turnout to being totally on his own is a huge change for him. Personally, I strongly believe that horses need to have social contact with others. Is there any way he could share with one of the geldings, or could you find a companion for him?

I agree that some of the behaviour you're talking about suggests pain. I'm sure you're aware but bucking on the canter transition can be a symptom of pain in all sorts of areas, not just his back- as could his behaviour on the lunge. Has a vet seen him since this behaviour started? Some horses can also become more insecure when they're in pain- for example it's not uncommon for horses with low grade ulcers to become more nervous.

Personally, I'd be investigating both routes- by trying to get him some social contact again, and by asking for a vet's advice too.

If the problematic behaviour started with the change in field arrangements then it’s worth changing back to the old field mates to see what happens.

If the behavior started with the new saddle, it’s also worth checking this hasn’t caused problems. Saddle fitting is quite an expert thing and it is easy to get it wrong.

Yes I completely agree and think he should be with a herd, but they won’t let him back in because of what happened, and there’s no one else to go with, everyone else is on individual turn out for some reason or other. It’s a bit annoying. Another reason to think about moving him.

I’ve always had a niggle about him having hind ulcers, he isn’t girthy and doesn’t display any other obvious ulcer signs.

The saddle is a much better fit, his old one is what caused him problems initially, so I had this one fitted and he moves so much more freely in it and doesn’t nap any more. In the old saddle I could barely get him to trot without him napping. That stopped pretty much overnight once I got this new saddle. The first one was also fitted by a saddler .

A vet hasn’t checked him no, I might have to go down that route. My instructor does think it’s just an unbalanced thing though, so who knows.

Someone asked about feed... I’ve cut it right back since he’s been on grass, he has one small feed a day just to get his supplements in him (half a scoop chaff, complete fibre nuggets, salt and general purpose supplement).

I’m actually going to get another instructor I know to ride him, she’ll be able to tell me if she thinks it’s pain related or a green/unbalanced/behaviour thing with the bucking.

Oh and bit wise he’s in a neue schule loose ring snaffle in the school and I’m awaiting delivery from a bit bank of their Pelham to try out hacking. I’ve had awful problems finding the right bit for him, he puts his head down and leans quite a bit. He hates any kind of poll pressure which makes it difficult to find a decent bit that’s a bit stronger. He’s also very fussy with what goes in his mouth. The trans angled lozenge is the only mouthpiece he will accept and go nicely in.

I think moving would solve a lot of issues, whole set up sounds horrible and full of bullies. It’s meant to be a fun hobby , doesn’t sound much fun for you now !
What your yo did in cantering off and leaving you would have provoked a similar reaction in most horses, it was incredibly thoughtless.
Get him some field company so he can learn some manners and expend some energy then just go back to the stuff you feel confidant at, get really good at that while both learning new good habits , then start pushing yourself. Get someone brave to school him once a week and see if bucking continues, I suspect he is young, unbalanced, bolshy and trying to evade work as he knows you will back off.
Good luck x

I've been in a similar situation on a yard I was on. The constant sniping and criticism from another livery rapidly wore away my confidence. She'd critisise literally everything I did, even if i followed her advice she'd tell me I was doing it wrong and laugh about me to others. On one occasion she pushed and pushed until my horse was so wound up I was thrown into a fence and broke my finger. This livery then used it as an example of how useless I was. I am an educated, senior manager responsible for 100's of staff and a budget of £11m. I cannot believe it but In a livery environement I reached a point were I was scared to be on the yard with this person and i'd only deal with my horse if there was nobody around at all.

Eventually I just couldn't handle it any longer and moved to a new yard. I was determined to keep myself to myself and press on with just dealing with my horse. This literally changed my life with my horse, the 121 time really helped with the bond and slowly I built up my confidence and in time i developed a few good friendships. I won't pretend it's all been easy but making that cut was a huge game changer for me and my horse. I cannot believe I let myself be treated that way. It was similar to an abusive relationship, small examples slowly building to bigger examples all eating away at your self esteem. Please make a move so you and your horse are not in a dangerous situation ever again.

Big hugsxxx

The yard doesn’t seem suitable for your needs.

However, I would also get an experienced vet out ASAP. A horse that naps from saddle pain won’t usually recover just like that. Poll pressure pain should also be looked at, as well as ulcers if you have suspicions. In my experience, 9/10 cases of difficult behaviour in horses are down to pain.

It’s horrible isn’t it. I survived 10 years of horrendous abuse from my ex husband, in ways unimaginable... yet this for some reason this is effecting me In equal measures. I’ve woken up with that horrible feeling in my stomach, it’s making me feel ill.

She’s out at a show today so I’m going to get there when she’s gone and lunge him and see how it goes. Will need gloves and brave pants

With regards to the saddle, his back was done at the same time it was changed so he was probably feeling a lot better in a few ways. It wasn’t a case of putting the new saddle on and he went amazingly, it took a few times for him to realise it felt better. I think when I said it stopped pretty much overnight I didn’t mean literally, it’s just a phrase I use when I mean it happened quickly

See when he bucks I don’t back off, I push him forward, get him cantering then do a few more transitions. Sometimes he then doesn’t do it again, only the first time, sometimes he bucks every time. It’s very hit and miss and not every time, but always on the same rein.

His poll was tight the last time his back was done so I changed to an anatomical bridle with less pressure over it and he went much better after. Maybe it’s just got tight again.

My instructor is also my physio so will have a good chat to her about it, we didn’t discuss any of this when I broke down on her, it was more just about how I was feeling.

I’m even scared to ask her about putting him back in the herd, but I don’t want him in with the mare as she is causing so many issues. All these geldings have been segregated because of her, it would make so much more sense for all the geldings to go together and then the mares, but she doesn’t want her precious mare going out with them. Also, I don’t like the way they get introduced... I firmly believe they should be put in and left to it to sort themselves out, obviously if it gets too bad or doesn’t let up then intervene, but when this new horse came in she kept taking one out and separating it for a few hours, putting that one back in, taking another one out etc, so they couldn’t actually be left to get on with it and get their peking order, as 3 of them would sort it out and be happy, then the 4th one would go back in and it would cause havoc again, so another got removed etc etc.

This is just ridiculous the way I feel

I wouldn't have my horse living alone for 2 months. Hard to tell whether this is a factor in his ridden behaviour but it's unfair on your horse and potentially very distressing for him.

I appreciate you are very stressed and I don’t want to pile on but it is highly unusual for a physio to treat a horse with back pain without ever having consulted a vet (because it is also illegal, strictly speaking). Your horse is showing signs of pain, the napping, the bucking, especially on the same rein (this just screams pain!) and the rearing (which is a very dangerous escalation). The new saddle may have alleviated some of the symptoms of pain but if you have new, negative reactions then the underlying cause could still be there.

I’ve messaged the yard owner saying I want to put him back out with the herd, she said we’ll talk about it today. But I completely agree with you, horses are herd animals and should never be turned out alone. Unfortunately it wasn’t my decision to do it.

And yes boo, obviously I had to get my vets signed permission before he’s had any back treatment. No chiro or physio should touch a horse until that permission is granted.

Yes I know he’s showing signs of pain, it’s actually my yard owner I’ve been talking to about all of this before we fell out. She reckons there’s something underlying, and I will be calling my vets, but this post was more about the way I feel and my confidence than anything else. It just seems a coincidence that his behaviour has escalated since he’s been on his own and I wanted to know if that could be a factor.

I understand and many factors can contribute to a horse being unhappy, which in turns affects the rider’s confidence, but unless the horse is pain free, you are pouring water into a leaking bucket. Glad to hear you will be calling out your vet, I hope he can sort things out for you. And don’t back down with your yard owner. If she has a mare who won’t settle with other mares, she should be placed with one gelding, then all other geldings can go out together. In my experience many mares and one gelding works, but many geldings and one mare risks having some of the geldings start to argue.

If he doesn't like poll pressure, a Pelham won't help.

A loose ring is unsupported in the mouth and there's different schools of thought in whether this helps with leaning or not. It can be as detrimental as it's beneficial. I tend towards thinking a cob is more likely to lean anyway.

If he likes a lozenge, then why change? As i say he's a cob so leaning is part of his make up and it's only time and correct schooling to build up the right muscles for him to carry himself that will help.

As far as turn out goes, i suspect he's insecure which is part of being young and not used to being in his own. He'll grow out of it. In the meanwhile, think about if he really needs those supplements you've got him on and think about is he getting enough exercise.

His snaffle bit isn’t up for question, it literally took me 5 months to find the right one, even had a bit fit person out and have hired many from a bit bank. The loose ring snaffle is perfect and he goes the best in that compared to any other bit (and we’ve tried loads).

I’m not changing his mouthpiece, the Pelham is the neue schule one with the exact same mouthpiece as his snaffle. I’ve tried him in a 2 ring gag, a universal, a neue schule jumper. And none of them suit him. A Pelham is just the next in a list of things to try. The cheltenham gag will be next on my list, as are a few others. It’s just a process of elimination, if it doesn’t work, I move on to the next.

I’m not sure what you mean by all those supplements? He’s on a general purpose one so he gets all his vits and minerals, but that’s it?

And exercise wise he’s worked 5/6 days a week for an hour or more each time. And that’s proper work, not just strolling around the school doing not much.

Thanks boo.

I’ve been told as well he’s not allowed back in the herd, she kept asking me why and said I was making too much out of it. She tried to make it up with me, apologising and saying she wants me to be happy and to help so we kind of made up and left it like that (we do a lot outside of the yard as well, our kids are friends and we meet parks and go shopping etc). But then another girl on the yard (a close friend who I’ve worked with for years and trust 100%) came and told me after yard manager left that she’s been properly slagging me off to her and the other girls. Telling me one thing and then another, and lying about what I’ve said to her to make me look like I’m in the wrong. She told me to sell my horse because I’m too good for him, she told my friend I couldn’t ride and I was the problem. Can’t win. It’s ridiculous.

There’s loads of other things as well, like I was chatting to another livery about the herd and she said she was happy if I want to try him again in there (her horse is the one mine turned on), but then today my yard manager said this livery had been to her and said I was standing for 2 hours slagging her off and if mine goes back in the herd the livery is leaving. Which is absolute bullshit, this livery lady is the quietest mouse ever and keeps herself to herself, she’d never go and bitch like that to yard manager, so it’s all made up to make out like I’m doing wrong. This is all just one example, there is literally loads of things like this. It’s childish and petty. Who the fuck has time for that?!! It’s crazy.