I think I'm putting down my difficult horse

[whattodowheretogo]

I've posted about my horse on here before but I'd just like some last minute opinions.

I bought him a year ago from a TB breeder and trainer as she felt that she was too old for a horse like him and she couldn't sit his spooks.

No ground manners, didn't know where to put his feet, didn't respond to pressure.

I wanted a project and he was one in every sense of the word. I fell in love with him as soon as I saw him.

When I tried him out he was good, but at the end, he took off with me across the field and didn't stop until he physically couldn't go any further. I wasn't concerned about that, I just figured he was green and overwhelmed and these things would come with time.

When we got him home he needed a chifney to be taken anywhere or he would just set his neck and try to canter off (my ex was looking after him for a lot of the time - he's a racehorse trainer and rehab yard owner so he knows what he's doing!) and even he would struggle with him.

Through the months his ground manners improved but to this day he can suddenly try to drag you somewhere and canter off.

His biggest issues are ridden. I've had many rides on him when he's simply decided to take off and nothing can stop him until he's done himself in. One lesson I had we were cantering for so long with him screeching round the corners and bucking that I was getting lightheaded. My trainer couldn't do anything but stand and watch.

He will do things like take off, then screech to a halt in front of the fence, then shoot off again.

I've taken everything right back to basics, over the winter I worked solely on the ground with him, teaching him the saddle and bridle is a positive thing, we learnt to stand stock still at the mountain block, yield to pressure etc.

But he is so unpredictable - he'll do a nasty spook at "nothing", just completely drop his shoulder.

I've spent months just walking and trotting in the school to make it a nice calm experience for him. I've honestly tried everything.

He's just messed up his only saving grace - to hack he is brilliant and super calm. But this weekend he took one look at something on the floor, bolted for home and ran into the main road. I came off, got concussion and fractured my foot.

I've been riding for 17 years, I'll ride literally anything. I ride friend's difficult horses for them if they've come off and had accidents and have a great time. But there's just something about this horse that I just think.. what is it going to take?

I'm so thankful that this wasn't a worse injury for either me or him.

I'm pretty certain that I'm going to put him down. It's something I've discussed with my vet before after he remarked what a difficult git he was.

I feel like it would be unfair on him to pass him on, I'd worry about how he'd be treated given all his quirks, whether he'd be passed on again etc but also I'd worry that he may seriously injure himself or someone else.

Thoughts/suggestions?

I don't need some fancy name to call a working relationship with my animals.

^

This x one thousand!

Those bastard horses that insist on following you everywhere.

Mine are fuckers Ursula. Was havung trouble getting baby pony (well 4 but still a baby) to understand that lunging meant being more than 2 ft away from me.

Ended up unclipping her and teaching her 'trot on' and 'walk on' loose in the school. With the aid of a cracky lunge whip that never touched her. Anyway. It predictably ended with bucks and farts and the odd handstand. After 2 mins on each rein I stopped and called her over and she came and stood nuzzling my neck while same parelli bird told me I should keep pushing her until she relented and came to me with her head down, eyes lowered licking her lips like some geisha.

Told her to fuck off, stomped out of the school followed by baby pony.

Next day baby pony lunged like a pro. But I didn't do it 'right' because she didn't lick her lips when I went into her.

Probably because I don't have fucking carrots secreted around me. Cunts that they are.

"didn't do it 'right' because she didn't lick her lips" what fuckwittery is this? So baby pony (who just wuffs you and wants to be with you) wasn't knackered enough from not rebelling in other words!

Licking lips in dogs is a sign of stress.

Apparently.

can be, also could be stressed at the scent of lamb chops...

This is one of the best critiques of Monty Roberts, round pens and dominance theory that I've come across www.epona.tv/blog/round-and-round-we-go

My horses follow me when they want to be with me, and not when they're less fussed. When I'm loose schooling my old boy I quite often find myself thinking "perhaps he should canter now" and before I've got half way through the thought he's cantering. There's no magic trick though - we just spend a lot of time together.

mmm.. lamb chops

I think folk who are agog at the 'poor horse' need to understand how much they can damage themselves never mind whether they hurt the rider or onlookers too.

I remember whilst out on a ride in the countryside with a horse I looked after (livery yard) and a few other livery owners on their horses. This one guy (on a chestnut mare !!) when we were cantering suddenly set off at a rare old pace ahead of all of us. Partly I think he was an idiot and wasn't fully trying to stop but there was also a massive dollop of the horse just doing one and going as fast and hell for leather as it could.

When he finally pulled it up and despite a sturdy set of boots in front and behind the horse had clearly repeatedly struck into himself and the boots were absolutely full of blood, he was pouring with it, absolutely pouring. It was utterly horrific. And this was not a completely and unpredictably nuts horse like OPs (apologies OP, no offence meant at all but I do know the type). It's one of the most horrible things I've ever seen.

I've also worked with horses unsafe on the ground including a purebred New Forest pony that if left in a field on its own would jump the massive ditched gigantic hedge and run all the way back to the stables. And an Irish Draft that could easily have killed you in the stable by crushing you. She went utterly nuts when the vet came to do anything to her and was actually even more dangerous when tranquilised. Again, neither of these horses were especially nuts.

Now multiply that by however much per cent you'd need to to get you to the level of danger and unpredictability that OP has reported. It's so unbelievably and incredibly, utterly dangerous and unless you've been on the wrong side of a horse like this (even if you're experienced with horses) you cannot imagine how bloody dangerous they are to be around. This consideration of PTS seems entirely reasonable after the massive amount of time and effort OP has put in and I think she should rest easy with this decision.

It's your horse, your responsibility. If you feel you've done right by him, PTS. Hope you're still reading....it's a lonely place to be. XXX

Also in my experience the people into it are also the most scared of riding their horse

Yes! This is so true

Can't be bothered to read all the posts because I'll be driven mad by them no doubt. OP if you can make peace with your decision then that's what you should do. I think people who chuck their old crippled horses in a field to retire are unfair. The horses have been pampered and cared for then when they can no longer be ridden because they're in pain they are chucked in a field and forgotten so the owners don't have to do the difficult thing. FROUBY your parelli posts made me laugh. There is literally nothing more frustrating on a livery yard. Thank goodness I'm away from that now

Gabilan

No not in the U.K. I did it in the Netherlands and Belgium (more specifically around Antwerp; if you speak Dutch or French I can give you the address). For the traditional lessons I paid 1600 € (not a lot considering that it’s a lot of lessons-probably more now since it’s 2 years now). For the NH variety I paid 160 €. Not including the tools. Essentially you just need a rasp (I prefer a Dick 16; more rough sides than a normal rasp, only 1 fine – which is good because that’s the side that will wear out first), two hoof knives (left and right; I use Dick Ascot). +- 100 €. Oh yes and preferably gloves +- 20 €. All in all very cheap. Then you’re good to go. You just have to be patient; and not too dogmatic (e.g. sometimes it’s better to leave a bit more heel). Oh and to be clear I only do it for my (non-retired) horses. People underestimate how easy it is.

I’m sorry QuestionableMouse but that guy’s an idiot, you have to proceed slowly it’s one of the first things they tell you. With one of my horses it took 4 months. Moving faster would have caused her quite a bit of pain. Again- I’m honestly quite confident that everyone can do it. I take what I like about NH; I dislike things like join-up etc so I don’t do it. I just want the horse to have fun and no discomfort once so ever. Quite strange though that NH, essentially a very broad term, is coupled with lots of prejudices in the U.K.

The horses have been pampered and cared for then when they can no longer be ridden because they're in pain they are chucked in a field and forgotten so the owners don't have to do the difficult thing.

Look horses that live in a herd are happy, they are extremely social creatures. It’s preferable to livery yards since for starters they don’t have to spend time in a smallish stable for a substantial amount of time; don’t have restricted access to grass, don’t develop stable vices … They do what they please. They stand in the sun, groom each other, play with the other horses, stand under a tree... They don’t need you to entertain them, but even so nothing makes it impossible for you to still do that. They do all things that come quite natural to horses. It’s not natural for horses to live in confined, small, spaces.

Voci Not all horses are happy loafing about in a field. Most are - but there are one or two whose temperaments and character are not suited to it - and they are miserable.

I live in that area and I use a very experienced/traditional maréchal-ferrant/hoefsmid recommended by our vet. Unless you have experience over many years, shoeing all sorts of different horses with different issues, I am not convinced that you can do a good job with just one or two horses I am afraid, as you there is little to compare them with.

I can completely get why you would be wanting to pts.

There is definitely something physically wrong with this horse. You haven't found it yet, maybe you never will. It could be a brain tumour, ulcers, etc.

My horse was doing similar things to yours, he would bolt with me, turn into a bucking bronco with other riders. I had vets, physios, saddle fitters, everyone checking him. Nothing was found. Eventually he gave in and showed how much pain he was in in his back, you couldn't touch his back with a finger, he would bend in half to avoid you touching him. Vet xrayed his back be thought that 2 vertebrae were close, but not close enough to be kissing spines. A specialist from Edinburgh disagreed and he got the surgery done on him.

However we've now figured out that the issue stemmed from his hind legs. His lameness back there was attributed to his back, but even then he wasn't lame all the time. It was random. He's getting surgery on his stifles now.

I would maybe get a second opinion from a vet if you haven't or do further xrays. Maybe even up his neck or his hind legs. Although really ultrasounds on his back legs would be better as that's how we found my horses issue, it was all soft tissue problems, not bone.

Other than that, could be ulcers. They can react like that to ulcers.

Can understand though if you can't afford that. I can only thanks to very lovely insurance and assets I can sell. But I know that my horse is a lovely horse when not in pain and even when in pain, he's usually lovely and doesn't want to be bad or hurt you, he puts up with the pain. He doesn't react as badly as your horse. Training isn't going to fix your horse, it's physical for sure but it will take a lot of money to fix and may not even be fixable. I'm taking a big gamble that we can fix my horse, but the odds are in my favour.

voci do you deliberately not read things fully? I said horses that are in pain. People that retire horses that are for example struggling with arthritis. They then chuck them in a field and don't give them the additional care they should be receiving now their health is failing. I think PTS is a far better option. The horse won't know the difference. It will know waking every day to constant discomfort it can do nothing to relieve.
Your posts about shoeing are genuinely terrifying. The fact your knowledge is so limited that you believe you can't damage a horse with a rasp and a knife shows you should not be using them. Something as small as an unlevel trim will affect the horses biomechanics and could cause huge repercussions for the joints. I could go on and on with examples of the damage you could inflict after having such inadequate training.

Fuelled Completely agree with you regarding retiring a horse that is unrideable due to pain. When I had the final & v expensive nerve block assessment on my horse he showed pain in: all 4 feet, stifles, hocks, probably also in Sacroiliac but cannot nerve block for that. No way would I retire him to live in a field in pain. He had never lived out, was easily bullied, & would have interpreted it as abandonment.
Interesting what Voci describes as the idyllic life of herds. My DD’s Dhorse has to be kept in a separate field as he spends every spare minute bullying other horses. Even separated, he comes in looking like a prizefighter after a few rounds after sparring with other horses over the fence.

Agreed on not letting a horse retire and live in pain. That's why I asked my vet if the surgery on my horses stifles remove the pain even if he cannot be ridden. I don't care if he can't be ridden but he will not be spending his time on bute or in a field in pain. He can easily retire, I'll be sad about it but I am happy to keep him as long as he is not in pain.

But I think this surgery is going to help him. He's walking and trotting fine but he's just not rideable right now.

We had a scintigraphy and my horse showed pain in his fetlock, hocks and SI. To look at he looked field sound. I am under no illusion most people would have done the "kind" thing and turned him away. After I made the hardest decision to PTS I wanted him to remember no pain so I gave him 5 Bute for his last 4 days and the difference in him made me cry. He hadn't looked bad without it but when you gave him it you could see the pain he had been in. I am now a huge believer in better a week too early than a day too late.

Scoopofchaff

But they don’t just loaf around the field. They have a social life. They forage etc... Might take some time to adapt but then they’ll pick up the rhythm of the herd. Some might still like/need some exercise/human interaction; clicker training, occasional packing horse, whatever the horse enjoys really and is still able to do.

I have more than 2 horses and for me it doesn’t make a difference - a lot of resources (books, forums where you can upload pictures for advice etc...) are available, you probably have a camera to double check the gait of your horse, you could ask someone to do it the first time and you do the basic maintenance and let someone check your work yearly if you’re unsure etc... I’ve been doing it for ages, including for one that does endurance and I remain convinced that it’s very easy.

Fueledwithfairydustandgin

No I did read it. What triggered me was the use of the word ‘pampered’, I don’t agree with that since I dislike most livery yards [wasn’t aimed at you btw- I was annoyed at people who dispose of horses when they are unrideable, one of the reasons being that the horse would be unhappy with other horses in a field]. I didn’t want to discuss the whole pain thing since it’s self evident; retire the horse timely, do everything you can to treat pain, obviously it helps no one if you put a crippled horse in a field (or a horse with Cushing that’s suffering etc...). You say it’s difficult; it’s not. I said you have to be an idiot to do damage, I don’t naturally assume that most people are idiots. I also assume that most people are able to digest a theoretical course and possibly do some research. You have probably never even tried it. It’s astoundingly easy to avoid an unlevel trim (again it’s just simple techniques; and you’re warned what happens if you do it wrong, it probably won’t cause permanent damage because you’ll see that your horse is walking quite tenderly so you’d be able to remedy it if you do manage to fudge it up); again try it. It’s trimming hoofs, not performing a lung transplant. At the end of the day it doesn’t really matter does it. People shouldn’t be intimidated to try it themselves because it’s really not hard. I don’t even know why we’re arguing tbh. I dislike learned helplessness.

I'm fairly well acquainted with equine behaviour Voci . As I said, and what is specifically relevant to the circumstances of the op, is that most horses will settle down in a herd but some will not. And as you say, those are the ones that need more work/interaction and that is what would be problematic in this instance.

And we'll have to agree to disagree about foot trimming! No, it's not a lung transplant, but an uneven trim can cause problems further up the leg during the time it takes to grow out. It "probably" not causing permanent damage sounds a bit slapdash to me; sorry!

It's not learned helplessness FFS. It's valuing my horses enough to use a trained professional. Someone that has spent 4 years full time learning as oppose to one evening a week for a year. The same as if I'm ill I don't do a quick first aid course, I'd obviously use a Dr.
My point about retiring to a field, is just because they aren't hobbling around on 3 legs doesn't mean they aren't in pain. The same as if you do a bad trim it won't necessarily make them lame. If you consistently trim slightly outside high for example the horse will adapt, but it will have an impact on joints.

Can you find someone willing to keep him in a field? It’s a bit mean putting him down just because he doesn’t want to be ridden

Read most of the thread

I am an experienced horse owner and lover of animals
It sounds to me that this Horse is in pain and goes into flight mode.

I would personally re get his back checked and saddle fitted by 2 other professionals
Some back man and dentists can be notoriously bad. Get a Saddle fitter who will measure a saddle on a moving horse not just a static position. Consider very wide fitting saddle with pads underneath incase of muscle wastage from previous saddles and hence a pain reaction.
Also get teeth done again.
The ulcer thing is interesting as no scope can see into the hind gut. Consider treating for ulcers.
However if this is all done and nothing improves I would have no hesitation on PTS
Horses need a job and should never be passed on if they have behaviour issues. They will always end up being mistreated and it's kinder for them to go to horse heaven.
Where are you based? If you are in Durham area I can recommend some fabulous saddle fitters and Physio's

Haven’t read full thread but have you had him scoped for ulcers? All of this behaviour sounds very typical of a horse with bad ulcers and ex racers are particularly prone to them.