So disheartened with youngster and progress. Really don't know what to do.

[peskyfeelings]

Hello everybody,

I could really use some points of view regarding my 6 year old (just gone 6) New Forest gelding. I am feeling so upset and worried right now, and don't really know where to turn...

Background: I bought him from a friend as a (nearly) 3 year old. She had him from 6 months, but sold him as she said he was going to be too much of a handful for her. Up until May last year she was caring for him at the other end of the country. Then I was able to move him closer to me and start doing a lot more with him. He was actually backed at 3, but his progress was very limited.

I've been working really hard with him for the past year. I wouldn't like to guess how much I've spent on lessons/having him lunged on the days I can't get to yard and so on. He was ridden at least 4 times a week over the winter, so has come into summer feeling pretty fit.

Progress has been sketchy to say the least. He can work well on a good day, but on a bad day he is an utter nightmare. He spooks, bucks, tanks off, you name it and he does it. In the last 2 months I have torn a leg muscle (still healing) after coming off in school, and 3 weeks ago I severely bruised my tail bone after he reared whilst trotting up the centre line.

Now he's had 3 weeks off as I was too crippled to ride, and he's come back to work even wilder than he was before. Last night he tanked off the entire length of a field with me, head down between his legs and bucking to the skies.

I really don't know what to do with him. :( I'm getting to the point where I'm scared to ride him as I feel it's a case of when, not if, he really hurts me. I am utterly miserable with the situation and honestly feel quite despairing. It takes me a three hour round trip (I'm in London, he's in Kent) to even get to see him. That makes it even more disheartening!

Everyone is telling me to persevere, but it's not their necks on the line! I'm on a micro budget too, so can't afford to send him away to re-break. As I mentioned; I've already spent a small inheritance on lessons and I still can't ride him safely half the time.

I love him desperately though, and I've always kept my horses all their lives. I feel like SUCH a failure for not being able to do anything with him. I'm nearly in tears typing this.

WWYD is you were me?

Sorry Icey but that is beyond over simplistic and totally ignores that horses are temperamental animals, not robots.

Even the most ardent Monty Roberts devotees (and the man himself, because he did a display at my old yard over 20 years ago) will tell you that not every horse has uniform body language or will respond in the expected way.

It is just not remotely realistic to expect every horse to ridden bitless/in a halter/in a happy mouth and our job as responsible riders and trainers is to use the minimum amount of 'force' to ask the horse to do what we want while keeping them and us safe. I don't ride in spurs unless I need to, I avoid martingale unless the horse is going to do itself long term problems without one.
No one is suggesting charging straight in with chainsaw bits and standing martingales.
And if you read my post, you would see I suggested a gag with double reins so the gag effect was only used when absolutely necessary.

Sometimes they don't want to do what we want them to, even if they fully understand what they should be doing. That isn't the point we give up and turn them into the New Forest to find their natural way. It is the point we train them.

Why would you continue to ride a horse that you knew was in pain? Bute or no bute. Pain could also be from something bute wouldn't solve - bad fitting tack for example.
If a horse has been in pain for a long period of time the fear of pain will remain regardless of whether they are in pain at that current time. So giving bute is unlikely to be effectively.

No one is suggesting charging straight in with chainsaw bits and standing martingales.
And if you read my post, you would see I suggested a gag with double reins so the gag effect was only used when absolutely necessary.

A gag is a pretty severe bit actually!!! It's banned in several disciplines I believe. Double reins are only ok if someone has been taught to ride properly with them. They are a lethal combination in inexperienced hands!

Sometimes they don't want to do what we want them to, even if they fully understand what they should be doing.
But the whole point of working with a horse is that they do want to do what you want. Our job is to create an environment which makes it easy for them to succeed and be interesting and engaging with them so that they want to participate

Icey great if bitless works for you. I'm aware of the problems of ill-fitting bits and harsh hands. But correctly fitted and carefully used, millions of horse-rider combinations have used bits without problems over 1000s of years.

And none of this is helping the op. From what she's said, her pony was quite a character long before ridden work started. Whatever is going on, it's stressful and she and her pony need help.

And none of this is helping the op. From what she's said, her pony was quite a character long before ridden work started. Whatever is going on, it's stressful and she and her pony need help.*

If you read my original post you will see that I have tried to help her! It was everyone else who jumped on me about bits!

As I have said several times the op need to develop her relationship with the horse. They both need to be able to trust and have confidence in the other - this appears to be missing at the moment. I have suggested things such as horse agility and simply spending some unstructured time with him so that they can build this.
She also needs to massively take the pressure off. Sure some horses at six will be capable of what she is expecting but not all are. He sounds as though mentally he's still very green. He needs lots of groundwork, manners and boundaries putting in place. Only then should she move on to the ridden work. The relationship and the groundwork is so so important but so many people seem to forget about it. If he has always been a bit tricky it's all the more important to have the basics right. He may well be quite anxious and the op needs to be able to be a strong positive lead for him. Get the boundaries right. Don't fuss over him if he is anxious but be there and be confident with him.
Put a bit in or don't bit him - it's not my business but blindly putting a stronger bit in his mouth without stopping and evaluating why the behaviour is happening is not fair to him. If he is anxious or in pain it will only make matters worse in the long run.
Op if you can why don't you take him on a Kelly Marks Intelligent Horsemanship course? Or someone similar. Get someone to help you improve the groundwork, trust, confidence and teamwork for you both?

Icey a bute trial is a diagnostic tool commonly used when the horse has behavioural problems but no evident physical cause. The horse is given painkillers for 2-3 weeks (nowadays Danilon as it is easier on the liver/kidneys than bute but the name has stuck) and if there is an improvement in behaviour then you know that pain is a contributing factor. You can then carry out further diagnostics that are quite expensive like a scintigraphy. It is not a perfect diagnostic tool but it can help in some cases.

No one is suggesting the OP ride the horse with painkillers long term without figuring outunderlying problem (if there is one). Although, as I am sure you know

Hi Peskyfeelings. I've only skimmed through the thread, but I'd take a different approach to constant schooling and training. Does he jump? Find someone younger and more gung-ho who'll take him jumping, hunting etc. He's not the horse for you, don't feel guilty.

Sorry, not sure what happened there!

...NSAIs are used routinely and long term to support horses with conditions like arthritis.

I think the OP has mentioned repeatedly that she does groundwork with the horse and he can be unpredictable even with professional trainers.

Icey a bute trial is a diagnostic tool commonly used when the horse has behavioural problems but no evident physical cause. The horse is given painkillers for 2-3 weeks (nowadays Danilon as it is easier on the liver/kidneys than bute but the name has stuck) and if there is an improvement in behaviour then you know that pain is a contributing factor.

Yes I'm well aware of that. But it only really useful when looking are specific problem. Not just for establishing whether or not the horse is in pain!

he can be unpredictable even with professional trainers.

Well if he's anxious he will be won't he! Just because someone's 'professional' doesn't suddenly make him trust them!

Apologies if I speak out of turn but I've only had time to skim read - but OP my heart goes out to you because I used to own a NF mare exactly like this - she was a bucking bronco. My parents bought her for me and she ruined my confidence for years and years. I didn't sell her either and in the end she was retired out - such a waste. I would sell him on, I really would. That's not a criticism of you, just that a new rider might get something else from him. To be honest he sounds like a rig - I also owned a Welsh pony who was (my parents bought some interesting ponies over the years) and he once tanked me four miles back down clung lanes only to dump me at the gate to the house. Interesting,y enough he dropped dead in the field at ten which the vet said was related to hormone levels - not sure why.

Not just for establishing whether or not a horse is in pain
As I explained to you that is EXACTLY what a bute trial is used for

Just because someone is a professional doesn't suddenly make him trust them
If that explains why the horse has not improved with the instructor or Jason Webb...but why do you think Kelly Marks is the solution then?!

Yes I'm well aware of that. But it only really useful when looking are specific problem. Not just for establishing whether or not the horse is in pain

That's exactly what is for

Yes I wouldn't blame you for selling him on tbh. Sad but understandable

Provided he isn't in pain, I think he might suit a good hunting home or a fearless young rider who wants to event. He'd be occupied then. There's no shame in selling them of you're not suited. I got lovely dhorse because he and his old owner weren't suited.

Not just for establishing whether or not a horse is in pain
As I explained to you that is EXACTLY what a bute trial is used for 

No it used in a diagnosic manner when trying to isolate a SPECIFIC issue. Randomly giving bute won't suddenly tell you WHERE the horse is in pain! That's why nerve blocks are used so that small areas can be isolated!

And as I said before it will NOT help with acute pain issues related to badly fitting tack or the likes current or historical.
*
Just because someone is a professional doesn't suddenly make him trust them
If that explains why the horse has not improved with the instructor or Jason Webb...but why do you think Kelly Marks is the solution then?!*

Urm cos Kelly will work with them to improve their relationship not try to work independently of the op! It's about going and spending a set period of time fo using on you and your relationship with your horse without any other distractions.

Op he sounds a little shit! The problem with native ponies is they are very clever. He has worked out that you are frightened of him and is right royally taking the piss. He is at the Kevin age and finding that every boundary he pushes is bending.

It's absolutely not your fault. Some ponies are just like that.

If he were mine he would be going away for reschooling. Not re breaking. You don't want to mess about babing him. He needs someone to get on, battle through his tantrums and make him work his arse off.

But I would probably wait a few months personally. Turn him away for a few months, let him drop his belly and lose some of that fitness and take it from there.

But I would definitely get his tack properly checked first. What saddle do you have on him? Who checked it for you? We're they a master saddler or just a regular saddle fitter?

The steadily progressively worse bucking and rearing also sguests to me some sort of physical problem. Has he been checked for kissing spine? That can certainly cause horrendous pain followed by behaviour issues.

Lastly do not be afraid to sell him or pts. There are 1000's of lovely, kind genuine ponies out there desperate for homes who will give you so much pleasure. Don't injur yourself fighting with him. He comes right or he goes.

icey you are very confused. Nerve blocks are indeed used to isolate a specific area, e.g. horse is lame on right fore but the vet can't quite find where the problem is coming from so he starts nerve blocking from low down working up until they get a sound horse which pin points the problem area for further tests. Bute trials are used when nothing else is indicative of a problem but the horse is still behaving badly. For example, I had a dressage horse who from one day to the next did not want to work in an outline, he went from winning at competitions to looking like a camel. The vet had negative results in lameness tests, neuro tests, back area was not reactive, etc. After a few weeks of this the vet suggested sending him to a professional to sort him out, but we tried a bute test before that. On bute he was back to his old self. Now we knew the cause of the problems was physical and it was worth looking into it with more tests (turned out to be a tooth!).

The OP has said repeatedly that she works with her instructor on a weekly basis. You may benefit from reading the thread.

Oh ignore icey, there's always one.

OP what comes across to me from your posts is that there seems to be no arena or type of riding which he enjoys and excels at. He can't hack sensibly, he hates the school etc. Every professional or outside opinion you have had has concluded he's a bastard, difficult, etc.

I see no enjoyment of your horse in your posts. I'm not surprised, it sounds like a battle, not a hobby.

Why did you want him in the first place? What did you want to do with him? After a year of owning him, how much closer are you to that dream?

If the answer is "close" then great. If the answer is "not close" then you have two choices:

1. Pay for him to be rebroken (with no guarantee of improvement)
2. Sell him on with full disclosure or PTS

Continuing with piecemeal lunging (which just makes him fitter and more bloody), long reining (which your not confident with) feed balances (which are an in exact science) or putting a stronger rider on (temporary fix) seems to be prolonging the agony.

My friend had an eventer like this - 17h of dangerous finely tuned muscle. She sent him away to a professional yard and he had the yard owner off 4 times in the first day. Eventually no one could do a thing with him, he lost her thousands and she sold him on. Some horses just aren't worth it.

If he's not in pain he'd probably love hunting! Not sure I'd have the balls to do it though!

Icey, maybe you should back off?
You haven't offered anything constructive that hadn't already been said several times in the first page, and you clearly have a bizarre agenda to push above actually wanting to help.

The OP has said the criticisms aren't helpful, and moreover you seem intent on picking a fight with all the other posters who are trying to offer up possibly options to allow her to keep this horse

There will be always be shades of opinion with horses (and any animals) but yours seem extreme to say the least, and only black or white. Not helpful or in the spirit of this thread.

Fuck me no way would I take him hunting. He'll kill you.

Wow this thread moved fast. I'm sure my boy would love to see all the controversy he's stirred up here. He does thrive on being the centre of attention after all! :)

I will try and answer all the outstanding questions, but apologies if I miss anything.

I did mention a bute trial to the vet when she came out to assess him. She said that we can definitely look into it if there's no signs of improvement. I'm not against going down the road of further tests if they are required.

Icyrider. I have no intention of bitting him stronger at the moment. I don't believe it is a solution either. However attempting to ride bit less would, in my opinion, be akin to suicide at this point.

I honestly don't believe that he is anxious or scared. He is the most curious, nosy pony I have ever met. He's as brave as a lion quite frankly. I've never seen him appear genuinely scared of anything in his life. His bucking, spooking etc is generally at none existent objects. He will go past terrifying tractors, bags flapping in hedges and assorted monsters and barely flick an ear at them!

There possibly is something in me not always been as clear in my directions as I could be. HOWEVER, I will add the disclaimer that even when I am 100% clear he will still push his luck repeatedly over things. I've been studying him very closely thins week while working from the ground, and I've noticed that he does listen to a lot of the time. Then it's almost like he just has to put in an objection just for the sake of it. It's so hard to explain on a computer what he's like.

AllHailTheSunDog. I've never jumped him. I would love to do jumping on him, but at the moment I just don't trust him to not to something seriously life endangering whilst doing it. I personally believe that the basics need to be there first and with him they just aren't. I'm sure he would be a brilliant jumping pony though. He's actually bred from jumping lines and he's fast as a racehorse! :)

Gabilan. I couldn't sell him on in good conscience. I really couldn't. I wouldn't trust him with a young rider (however brave) and he'd be a menace on the hunting field. On a bad day he won't even stand still without constant fidgeting and objecting.

FrobyLou. That is the thing though...I'm not frightened of him! I'm far from the best rider out there, but I am pretty much acknowledged on the yard as a pretty brave rider. I've NEVER let him get away with his napping, bucking etc. I will admit that on the ground I've been a bit too lenient with his "cute"attitude and have made a rod for my own back. :( Interestingly he is totally sulking with me (best way I can describe it) since I've been doing more ground work with him and taking a firmer approach. He's actually started walking away from me when I go to catch him. Something that he never used to do.

His saddle is a Throwgood synthetic. Nothing fancy as I'm on a shoestring. It was fitted by a master saddler, and I've got a different MS coming to refit it week after next. He's getting so fat not being ridden though. It might not fit at all soon! He hasn't been checked for kissing spines, no.

Kitchenunit. I wanted him because I fell in love with his adorable, cheeky nature. Sadly that cheeky nature has translated into being a cheeky shit under saddle. I'm not competitive at all. I'd be happy to do hacking (my favourite thing) schooling, and a bit of dressage/jumping. I just want to enjoy my horses. I feel I am closer to the dream and a million miles away at the same time right now. That makes no sense written down; probably more in my mind.

I'm going to send him away for re-breaking/schooling so that I can know I've done everything I possibly can. If that doesn't work he'll have to be retired. I can't sell him on in good faith and I'm not PTS. It would break my heart and also my 4 year old Dales heart as they are inseparable.

I've got Kelly Marks Perfect Manners book. I'm going to take it to the yard today and do some work with my Dales boy and pretend the NF doesn't exist. He was actually quite good last night when we did a bit of in hand stuff, so he can have the day off today.

Thank you again for all your help. Sorry this reply has been so long

Haha Kitchenunit. He would indeed kill anybody who took him hunting. He'd be a great way to get rid of your enemies! ;)