So disheartened with youngster and progress. Really don't know what to do.

[peskyfeelings]

Hello everybody,

I could really use some points of view regarding my 6 year old (just gone 6) New Forest gelding. I am feeling so upset and worried right now, and don't really know where to turn...

Background: I bought him from a friend as a (nearly) 3 year old. She had him from 6 months, but sold him as she said he was going to be too much of a handful for her. Up until May last year she was caring for him at the other end of the country. Then I was able to move him closer to me and start doing a lot more with him. He was actually backed at 3, but his progress was very limited.

I've been working really hard with him for the past year. I wouldn't like to guess how much I've spent on lessons/having him lunged on the days I can't get to yard and so on. He was ridden at least 4 times a week over the winter, so has come into summer feeling pretty fit.

Progress has been sketchy to say the least. He can work well on a good day, but on a bad day he is an utter nightmare. He spooks, bucks, tanks off, you name it and he does it. In the last 2 months I have torn a leg muscle (still healing) after coming off in school, and 3 weeks ago I severely bruised my tail bone after he reared whilst trotting up the centre line.

Now he's had 3 weeks off as I was too crippled to ride, and he's come back to work even wilder than he was before. Last night he tanked off the entire length of a field with me, head down between his legs and bucking to the skies.

I really don't know what to do with him. :( I'm getting to the point where I'm scared to ride him as I feel it's a case of when, not if, he really hurts me. I am utterly miserable with the situation and honestly feel quite despairing. It takes me a three hour round trip (I'm in London, he's in Kent) to even get to see him. That makes it even more disheartening!

Everyone is telling me to persevere, but it's not their necks on the line! I'm on a micro budget too, so can't afford to send him away to re-break. As I mentioned; I've already spent a small inheritance on lessons and I still can't ride him safely half the time.

I love him desperately though, and I've always kept my horses all their lives. I feel like SUCH a failure for not being able to do anything with him. I'm nearly in tears typing this.

WWYD is you were me?

Try Alex Wyatt BHSI @ Fiddlers Green Stud - based in Headcorn, Kent. Very, very good trainer & rider and he'd be light enough to ride a 14.2hh without damaging its back. Reasonable hourly rates and will travel to you. His partner, Daniel Watson teaches at PC too.
You could also try pure magnesium. Spring grass is deficient in it and it can result in 'explosions' about 5-10 mins into a session. It worked on our 13.2 riding pony mare more or less overnight. Worth you researching though. Good luck!

Honeyroar: Just general schooling and hacking atm. He was actually much more consistent out hacking (before I fell) He was still quite spooky/nappy, but definitely better then in school. Unfortunately he's been so full of beans since I got back on that even that feels like a life in hands situation. Last time I hacked he took off full pelt, head between knees and bucking like a rodeo horse. He isn't too bad in company, although he still tends to be nappy. He's not a clingy horse and certainly doesn't care about sticking with the others!

Finding someone to ride him is tricky as nobody wants to take him on! I could pay my instructor to do it (and do when I can afford it) but I really can't afford to pay her plus lessons for myself on top all the time. Especially when I'm not really seeing a consistent improvement out of it.

I agree he is totally pushing boundaries. Believe it or not I am firm with him. He just pushes over and over and OVER again!!!!!!!

Draughtywindow: Thank you very much for the suggestions. Sadly outside trainers aren't permitted on my yard and travelling him there would blow his mind atm. I will keep it in mind though. :)

I actually long reined him last night. It's not my strongest skill, but we didn't do too badly. He pretty much pushes his luck the same as being ridden, but actually gave up pretty quickly. I think he quite enjoyed it overall.

Plan of action is to get saddler out to check saddle next week. In the meantime I will long rein and try and keep him going on the ground. I'm also looking into getting him sent away and re-broken. I really hope it will help and even if it doesn't I will know I've tried my best.

Thank you everyone for your help. It really is appreciated. :)

Will also look into the pure magnesium as well. Thank you.

If outside trainers are not allowed I'd seriously consider moving yards. It's not at all helpful when you have a youngster.

I would strongly suggest you have an experienced vet out to eliminate any physical problems. What you say strongly suggests a back problem and if it escalates his behaviour could become even worse and he could end up hurting you.

I do hear what you're saying DraughtyWindow. I am thinking about asking for an exception to be made for my circumstances. I'm reluctant to move atm as in all other ways it's a really good yard. I am considering a move at some point though.

Booboostwo: Vet has been out and examined him recently. No back problems she could find and teeth also fine. I honestly don't think it is pain related (although clearly I'm no expert) vet doesn't think it is either. However I will go down road of further tests if needs be.

I think this is a problem where the only fix will be more money. Sensible people may walk away but, love isn't sensible (and I wouldn't walk either). Can you pay someone (good) to ride him on the days you don't for a month, then if he has improved find a loan to cover the days you can't do?

I had a mare that was very difficult if she wasn't ridden daily, witch was fine for me as I was a teenager. Fortunately she had retired by the time I was in work but I don't know what I would have done if she hadn't. She used to rear and tank off and bronk and basically do all the things you say he does, I put it down to her being enough of a madam to be turned into a brood mare at 5years old, by the time I got her at 10 she was very stuck in her ways.

After ridding her every day for a few months she settled down and I started to see a big change. I am not a very good rider, but I am good at clinging on and stubborn enough not to give up until I get what I want. I am also very good at taking no rubbish on the ground. Some days she would spend an hour rearing and refusing to leave the yard, on those days I sat tight and waited for her to get tired. Every time she stopped I repeated the request. Eventually she gave up arguing and did as I asked.

If he does calm down... Ask your yard owner for help finding a loan, they want to keep you on the yard so they should be more than happy to help. If the yard is a ridding school, even better as they usually have a ready supply of people who want to move towards there own horse. If you do this check your insurance, bhs gold members have third party insurance automatically I think so that could save you £.

I loved my mare, even though she was a bitch. And I can honestly say I have never ridden a better horse, she was a hanovairian and floated.

I also had some fun clicker training her as she was very smart. She would fetch dustbin lids I threw like a frisby and high five and stuff. Really helped strengthen our bond when I couldn't ride or she couldn't be ridden.

Is your vet a specialist equine vet? What exams did she carry out?

If all physical causes have been eliminated you really need a decent professional to take over. You are struggling with him, this is not a criticism just an assessment of what is going on from what you are saying, and continuing to struggle with him will only cause you and him to lose more confidence in each other.

Op, have you looked at new bits yet?

I want to offer to come and sit on him for you, but have a dodgy back at the moment. At the least, I'd come and lunge him with you on him just to see if that helps.

But the only way I can see for OP to find this out without throwing money she doesn't have at it, is by getting a stronger bit and stronger rider to see if they can have any impact.

Wow what an utterly ignorant response! A more hideous painful piece of metal in the horses mouth and harsher hands is definitely what's needed

Op you sound like you have no relationship with this poor horse. You will not succeed with him until you do. He is still very young and definitely still learning. Why are you expecting so much of him so young? IMHO you are doing way to much ridden work and nowhere near enough relationship work. I don't sit on a horse until they are 5 as they are simply not ready. Ground work is the key to all ridden work you cannot miss this out or you will pay for it later. Horse agility type of things will probably be ideal. Spend as much time with him as you can and get to know him. Who cares if your youngster is quicker/slower to progress than anyone else's. Go back to square one build the relationship go through every single tiny step without skipping any. He will get there. You potentially have 25 years or more with this horse stop rushing him and accept where he is at. Let him have a break - sometimes that helps massively. Give him time to think and to learn. Take the pressure of both of you as learning cannot occur under stress.

Don't however hold your other youngster back on the behalf of your 6 year old. In fact it will give you something else to focus on and potentially provide you with ideas to help. Take your time and you will reap the rewards of your hard work in the long run.

Yes my vet is a specialist equine vet. They are the best respected vets in Kent and they have always been excellent with my horses and come highly recommended.

Riding him every day makes no difference. Believe me, I've tried it! He still displays this sort of behaviour and is even fitter when displaying it. Nobody at the yard will sit on him for me. I've asked! My trainer will, but at £30 a pop I don't have the money to make that a hugely regular occurrence. I don't feel comfortable getting a stranger in to do it. I'm genuinely scared he will hurt them if I do. As I mentioned before, we aren't allowed outside trainers on the yard.

I don't intend to start using harsher bits etc. I don't believe it's a solution and he has the sort of temperament that will only rebel more with that sort of approach.

Icyrider. I don't think I have asked too much of him at all for a six year old. He was barely ridden until he was 5, and has been asked to do nothing more ridden wise so far than hacking out and a bit of schooling. I don't care how quickly he progresses either. However I would like to have a horse I can take for a nice hack around the farm without taking my life in my hands. Is that too much to ask? I really don't think it is.

We actually have done horse agility. I've also done Jason Webb in hand clinics with him and he was an absolute handful for him too. Even Jason said he's got an extremely pushy nature.

I long reined him around cones etc last night and he was pretty good. Then as I was leading him back to field he broke away from me, and spent 15 minutes running up and down fence line evading me. After I caught him I spent half an hour walking him up and down it, and making him halt and walk on until he did as he was asked. I don't let him get away with his behaviour, but he STILL displays it time after time.

I'm looking into getting him sent away and re-backed, so hopefully that will help. I think I might just let this thread drop now. It's making me feel even worse about the situation as I feel I'm having to defend my actions when I'm trying so bloody hard with this pony. Thank you very much for your contributions. They have been appreciated. :)

Wow what an utterly ignorant response! A more hideous painful piece of metal in the horses mouth and harsher hands is definitely what's needed

Sorry, but that is absolute ignorant nonsense on so many levels!
A 'hideous painful piece of metal'? Do you know anything about bitting? And you think anyone who puts a stronger bit in for XC or SJ is cruel?

And 'harsher hands'? Do you know anything about being an experienced rider?! Stronger rider doesn't mean someone to yank it around and I can't see how you could make that assumption if you know the first thing about how to ride

Oh no OP please don't feel like that! The point of asking all the details is to help you think through all possible problems and hopefully something might click or you may see the way forward. It is clear that you have put a lot of time and energy into this horse, I don't think it's a case of you having done anything wrong. If you have exhausted all the options you may have to consider more radical solutions.

If I were you and could afford it I would send him to a sympathetic, recommended professional to re-break him. If they succeed then you will have a lovely horse. If they struggle then you will know you did everything possible for him and can decide on his future with that in mind. Do you think he would enjoy retirement? He is very young but, very rarely, some horse just don't want to work and nothing will convince them otherwise.

Your right Booboostwo. I shouldn't throw my toys out of the pram. The suggestions I'm doing too much with him really hit a nerve though. I can't stand seeing horses pushed too much as youngsters, and I've tried really hard to not push mine too far to soon. I would honestly be resigned if he just decided he wanted to be a happy hacker!

I have decided to find a trainer to re-break him for exactly the reasons you outlined. Then at least I will know I did everything I possibly could. I really don't know if he would enjoy retirement to be honest. It is so strange because the work thing aside he is a real people pony. He's so nosy and cheeky and into everything. It's the main reason I love him so much despite him driving me bonkers. I would definitely not consider selling on or PTS though. I couldn't live with myself and my 4 year old Dales would be heartbroken without him. They are inseparable.

I will have to save a bit of money to send him away though, so in the meantime I will continue with ground work and long reining. I've ordered Perfect Manners by Kelly Marks off Amazon. Going to get stuck into it at the weekend while I am off work! :)

I have decided to find a trainer to re-break him for exactly the reasons you outlined

Sounds like a good idea. Some people say you do too much, others too little. You can't win with horses! But don't beat yourself up when you're doing your best for him.

I have just one off-the wall thought. Feel free to ignore but could he possibly be a rig? It's unusual these days but just possible and he's acting in ways that you'd tolerate more from an entire.

It's crossed my mind Gabilan. However he doesn't really display rig like behaviour towards mares. He used to be out in a mixed herd without any problems. Therefore I'm not sure how likely it would be?

He was gelded really young. He was only nine months old. Not sure if that would make any difference?

Sorry, but that is absolute ignorant nonsense on so many levels!
A 'hideous painful piece of metal'? Do you know anything about bitting?
Yes thanks I know more than enough about bitting horses! Arguably I probably know more than most having done extensive research and training. Clearly you have no idea just how painful it is for a horse to have a bit in its mouth!!!!

And you think anyone who puts a stronger bit in for XC or SJ is cruel? Certainly incompetent! If you need a bit at all to control a horse you are going massively wrong.

And 'harsher hands'? Do you know anything about being an experienced rider?! Stronger rider doesn't mean someone to yank it around and I can't see how you could make that assumption if you know the first thing about how to ride*
Yes thanks I have 20+ years of riding experience. I know know I will NEVER bit a horse again. As I said above if you need to control a horse by yanking it in the mouth then you do not have a good relationship and certainly are not a good rider! And yes there are many idiots at top level competition who have appalling horsemanship.

I don't understand about not having outside trainers on the yard?! How ridiculous.

I'll probably get shot down for this but have you tried a bute trial? A weeks bute before you ride? Sometimes it can pinpoint if there is a pain issue. And sorry if you've mentioned it but I would get a good physio and saddler out. It definitely sounds like a back issue.

Oh brilliant Icey
You came here to push an agenda (hackamores? Telepathy? You haven't said what your preferred method is) rather than actually helping the OP

No no agenda just common sense!!!

If a horse isn't doing what you want then one of 3 things is happening

1. it's in pain
2. it's scared
3. it doesn't understand what you want

Not rocket science!!!!

Stronger bits. Gadgets. Stronger riders, bute?!! All just mask the issues not deal with them. The op needs to evaluate HER behaviour to see what SHE is doing to cause the reactions from the horse. Pain must also be ruled out.
She also needs to form a bond with the horse. I posted suggestions on my first post but she shot them down. You cannot expect a horse to do what you want without a good trusting relationship and secure base from which to work.

The OP wants her 6 year old to do some hacking and schooling. She's not doing Medium tests, 1.40 bsja tracks or high performance classes ffs.

And when it comes to bits, look up observer bias. Bitless bridles are not without their downsides.

The bute idea was to see if he is in pain, not a long term solution. Not much different from a vet doing a nerve block.

Who said anything about bitless bridles?!

All of my horses work off a rope halter at home and out hacking. When competing they have a simple leather bridle with cheek pieces removed, no bit and the reins attached to the noseband.

iceyrider you have deliberately misunderstood what I've said about bute

All of my horses work off a rope halter at home and out hacking. When competing they have a simple leather bridle with cheek pieces removed, no bit and the reins attached to the noseband.

Good for you. Anyway, back in the real world..