So disheartened with youngster and progress. Really don't know what to do.

[peskyfeelings]

Hello everybody,

I could really use some points of view regarding my 6 year old (just gone 6) New Forest gelding. I am feeling so upset and worried right now, and don't really know where to turn...

Background: I bought him from a friend as a (nearly) 3 year old. She had him from 6 months, but sold him as she said he was going to be too much of a handful for her. Up until May last year she was caring for him at the other end of the country. Then I was able to move him closer to me and start doing a lot more with him. He was actually backed at 3, but his progress was very limited.

I've been working really hard with him for the past year. I wouldn't like to guess how much I've spent on lessons/having him lunged on the days I can't get to yard and so on. He was ridden at least 4 times a week over the winter, so has come into summer feeling pretty fit.

Progress has been sketchy to say the least. He can work well on a good day, but on a bad day he is an utter nightmare. He spooks, bucks, tanks off, you name it and he does it. In the last 2 months I have torn a leg muscle (still healing) after coming off in school, and 3 weeks ago I severely bruised my tail bone after he reared whilst trotting up the centre line.

Now he's had 3 weeks off as I was too crippled to ride, and he's come back to work even wilder than he was before. Last night he tanked off the entire length of a field with me, head down between his legs and bucking to the skies.

I really don't know what to do with him. :( I'm getting to the point where I'm scared to ride him as I feel it's a case of when, not if, he really hurts me. I am utterly miserable with the situation and honestly feel quite despairing. It takes me a three hour round trip (I'm in London, he's in Kent) to even get to see him. That makes it even more disheartening!

Everyone is telling me to persevere, but it's not their necks on the line! I'm on a micro budget too, so can't afford to send him away to re-break. As I mentioned; I've already spent a small inheritance on lessons and I still can't ride him safely half the time.

I love him desperately though, and I've always kept my horses all their lives. I feel like SUCH a failure for not being able to do anything with him. I'm nearly in tears typing this.

WWYD is you were me?

Thank you Slingcrump. I really appreciate your kind words.

I fear a training window was missed. The trouble is that I'm wracked with guilt because I feel that it was probably me that missed it. I genuinely feel that my lack of knowledge has spoiled a beautiful and potentially very talented pony. It's the most awful feeling.

sparechange all of that makes a lot of sense! Particularly to tack change/strong riding highlighting the nature of the problem, rather than being the "cure". I was just thinking perhaps that it sounded as though the damage had already been done prior to the op's friend taking on the horse. And can personal testify to the mahoosive strength of natives!

Pesky see x posts below.

Think it is highly likely that the incorrect handling, or bolshiness not being tackled, happened before you came on the scene. I understand the guilt but I think you are being v hard on yourself. The Facebook group strategy looks like it is worth a go. Good luck with it.

Forgot to ask, does your friend have any more info on his early background?

Slingcrump. My friend bought him as a six month old foal. So he's only even been with her and then me. Therefore any cock ups in his training can be laid squarely at my feet. :(

He's the only youngster I've ever had and he is a very difficult character. My friend knew that he wasn't for her as he was going to be tricky; hence her selling him to me for practically nothing. I let my heart rule my head though because I love him so much. I want nothing more than a happy partnership. I just fear I've wrecked the chances of achieving it.

He's always been bolshy! He's been like that since my friend bought him at six months.

As an example of how stubborn he is... He will always try and nap back to the yard on certain paths out hacking. I have NEVER once let him away with it, but he will still try every single time a year down the line.

I'm the only person who has ever sat on him (apart from when my instructor schools him) So any ridden issues can be placed firmly at my feet probably. :(

Many apologies Pesky I mis-read your op and thought that she had moved him on after 6 months.

I still think you are being v hard on yourself though because early handling is vital!

But whether its a question of nature or nuture you have to deal with the situation as it is now. And fwiw, and reading between the lines, even though I am sure you feel ambiguous about it, having done your very best, I think you should give yourself permission to move on.

He wasn't bottle fed was he?

If not, sounds like it is down to his genes!

What does your instructor think?

Stubborn natives can be the stubbornest of all

He wasn't bottle fed. His breeder said he used to leave his mum as a tiny foal to go and beg food from the camp site at the other end of their massive field. He's always been eccentric to say the least!

Instructor thinks it's stubbornness and youth, and that he'll come right with age. I get what she's saying, but he's getting worse not better! I could cope if the bad behaviour was just moderate, but he's really hurt me twice in two months. My confidence is rapidly going.

She suggested more intensive lessons, but I'm already spending £120 a month on them!

The trouble is that I'm as stubborn as my pony. I don't want to give up on him! I'm just exhausted by it all.

First off a good physio and back assessment. Even though he can work nicely that doesn't rule out back problems. Next a saddle fitter as they change shape a lot as they fitten up.

I would add a calming supplement, and also perhaps a non heating feed balancer. It sounds strange but sometimes they really act out when they are short of magnesium - I have seen the before and after!
Can you do ground work with him? Reinforcing boundaries etc from the ground? I'm a big believer in long reining too- don't just have to do circles can be more mentally stimulating than lunging and also better physically and crucially you have more control.
Good luck.

I had a 13.2 NF like this as a child. A total total sod, strong as an ox, and very nearly put me off riding altogether. I came off so many times, that the rare times I rode without falling off i considered it a success. Countless times out hacking he would turn tail and gallop home, across junctions and round corners. I was helpless and terrified on his back.

But. I had an equally stubborn big sister. We put him in a Pelham, she rode him for a bit, aged about 18/19. The fights they had! Nothing awful, he'd get whacked occasionally, but it was a battle of the wills, and she wasn't afraid of him, whereas I was. One famous time took her three hours to get him out of the driveway past the front gate. Eventually the battles were fewer and further between. And we also discovered he loved jumping! Had an amazing pop in him.

Basically a combination of changing his bit, getting a stronger rider on him regularly, and finding something like the jumping that made him tick, turned him into a half rideable pony. My sister used to ride him as soon as he got a bit shitty, and this used to contain the worst of the behaviour.

Have you got anyone big and strong that would be prepared to have a few battles with him? Even if they were vastly underhorsed?

OP, have you got a suitable space you could free school him (even over jumps)?
It obviously won't work if you have to share the school with others, but if there is a space you can use or fence off, it might help with excess energy and/or boredom, without risking any further injuries to you from riding or lunging

Toomuchtooyoung: He's had saddle checked recently and physio is booked for later this month. I will wait and see if she can come up with anything.

He gets equimins vitamins in his (tiny) handful of feed. So I really don't feel he is vitamin deficient. In fact if anything they've just added to his strength and energy!

I've been doing a bit of ground work. I'm the first to admit I'm no expert, but I'm willing to try anything atm. Are there any books you can recommend? He's as pushy and bolshy on the ground as under saddle though. I've not even been able to do basic groundwork while my back was injured.

I haven't long reined in ages, but I'd be willing to try it (with some help) I think one problem is that I'm a) no expert and he's b) such a git, that I fear I will make things even worse!

Sparechange: We have a sand school I could free school him in. I've only tried it once and we just ran around willy nilly. I'm suspecting there's supposed to be rather a lot more to it than that? :0 I need to read some books/watch some videos I think.

tattychicken: You've just described my life with my boy right there. Only at 37 I don't bounce quite like I did at 16! :) I do feel like it's an almost constant battle of wills and I'm sort of losing the will atm. He's actually bred from jumping lines and I think he would excel. I've been wondering if part of the problem is that he just doesn't enjoy the school? He's better on hacks (although still not safe) Every fall I've had has actually been in the school. Sadly I don't know anyone big or strong who would ride him. None of the people of the yard would touch him for a gold pig! My instructor rides him and he goes much better after. It's £35 a time for that though, and on top of lessons is just impossibly bank breaking! I'm going to have a serious think about looking for someone to help though. I'm happy to pay. I just genuinely can't afford such high rates. :( Something else that racks me with guilt. I feel I haven't got the cash to fix the problem.

Kelly marks perfect manners book was helpful for us, in fact she may be a good person to contact, she is doing some weekends covering things and may be able to come out and help you. I think she is very good. www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/course-info/perfect-manners/
I promise am in no way linked etc. I think getting respect on the ground is essential before getting on his back.

Those weekends sound amazing. Totally out of my budget though. :(

I will invest in perfect manners as the next best thing. Thank you. :)

My sister does lots of natural horsemanship stuff and even horse agility. It has really helped with bargy and disrespectful behaviour on the ground.

This sounds like a very difficult situation. I think you are facing two possibilities, both of which are tough.

In my experience many behavioural problems have a physical cause but, very often, it's neither cheap nor easy to figure it out. If you go down this route you need an experienced equine vet to consider all possibilities, possibly at a clinic where they have other diagnostic tools. Has he ever had a lameness work up? Has he been scoped for ulcers? Has he had his back properly examined, including X-Ray's? Especially with the running off and the rearing I would want to discount any possibility of back problems - the physio and saddler are very useful but can't give you a diagnosis, you need a vet to either find the problem, or clear him physically.

If the root of his problems is physical they will be impossible to overcome purely by training but you could spend a lot of money hunting for the problem.

If his issue is behavioural he needs an experienced professional to take over on a full time basis for however long they recommend they need with him. A good professional will assess whether he needs re-breaking, will work on his ground manners, will ride him frequently and consider any lifestyle management changes needed. Find someone by word of mouth, visit their yard before you sent him over and visit frequently while he is there. Any decent professional should keep in touch with frequent progress reports.

If neither of these is an option for you, and I can understand why they would not be as, aside from anything else, they are expensive options with no guarantees of success, I would urge you not to sell him. He sounds like the sort of horse that would be passed from pillar to post ending up drugged up as a bargain basement sale with a dodgy dealer. If you can afford it retire him, if you can stomach it have him put to sleep.

pesky you can go and watch for the weekend for £30, may be worth it especially if you could have a chat. I agree with booboost about not selling on, he really could end up having a terrible life and also endangering people, especially as he child pony size. It's a horrible situation for you and I hope you find the help you both need

Pesky -two things to thing about , one you are already doing which is getting his back checked, I would also consider a second opinion on the saddle.
Second thing - all the lunging you are doing is making him fitter and stronger - so more able to be a complete Arse. Everyone has a difference of opinions, but I have my horses on a yard where they "break" horses, sometime for professional riders - and have done a couple for household names who were too "difficult " for them. Their advice is not to lunge - don't get them fit and full of themselves. Break them - get them fit by ridden work (and actually not fit in the cardio way , but by building muscle by just hacking in walk (after they know they can be trusted out of the arena - this can be a day , the most I have seen is a week) .
Personally given what you have said I would be finding the money to send him to a professional- someone who will take into account what you want to do (I have seen v different approaches used on a dressage stallion to a hairy cob for a happy hacker) - but you want to make sure you are happy with their approach and make sure they are doing what they are saying they are doing.

Pesky -two things to thing about , one you are already doing which is getting his back checked, I would also consider a second opinion on the saddle.
Second thing - all the lunging you are doing is making him fitter and stronger - so more able to be a complete Arse. Everyone has a difference of opinions, but I have my horses on a yard where they "break" horses, sometime for professional riders - and have done a couple for household names who were too "difficult " for them. Their advice is not to lunge - don't get them fit and full of themselves. Break them - get them fit by ridden work (and actually not fit in the cardio way , but by building muscle by just hacking in walk (after they know they can be trusted out of the arena - this can be a day , the most I have seen is a week) .
Personally given what you have said I would be finding the money to send him to a professional- someone who will take into account what you want to do (I have seen v different approaches used on a dressage stallion to a hairy cob for a happy hacker) - but you want to make sure you are happy with their approach and make sure they are doing what they are saying they are doing.

Haven't read all the replies, but here's my two pennarth. FWIW I've been a professional rider and instructor for many years and dealt with lots of ponies and people in your situation.

Your current situation isn't great. You're wasting money and time and having no fun and mega stress.

For whatever reason, whether it's lack of experience or poor real life advice, he's gone wrong. Don't beat yourself up; chances are he is just a strong character and was difficult anyway. Whatever it is, it's happened. Happens to all sorts of people, professionals too, so just accept it and start to look for the solution.
You need to either:

• pay for him to be professionally rebroken
• put him through the sales.

Personally, I'd go for the sales. Just sell him and someone else can have a go.

What's concerning is that you already have an instructor, and the problem isn't improving. This makes me think you've been getting some poor advice.
If I'd been helping someone for a long period and things were just getting worse, I'd be asking myself why and sorting it out before it got to this point.

I feel for you. It's hard when things just don't improve, but remember that even top riders move horses on because they just can't crack them.

mrslaughan I don't lunge breakers much either, just the bare minimum to get them used to tack. Then I do ride and lead with an older horse around the yard, then ride and lead with a rider on, then gradually take the lead off and separate horses. Works very well and had all sorts from pony club ponies to CCI** eventers started this way.

OP definitely get 2nd opinions on his saddle and back. Saddlers can be wrong. Personally I like leading off another horse. It's a really good way of working out if the issue is made worse by rider/ saddle. And many horses are better behaved once dhorse has shouldered them into a hedge.

You poor thing, it doesn't sound fun for you.

What kind of riding do you do with him? Have you got good hacking? Do you ride out with other people? Do you spend a lot of time in the school?

I'm inclined to think that your instructor partly has a point, he is a teenager testing the limits (and not finding many), but he won't just grow out of it. He will mature, but he needs firm but kind boundaries now while he is mentally growing up. Part of what he is doing is play, but he is also seeing if you guide him, which you aren't always. If your illness means his ridden work is hit and miss, you really need someone else who can give him more regular work and consistency. I think you could do with a different instructor perhaps. Even better, one that could do some ridden schooling with him too. Personally I'd limit the school work to one or two half hour sessions a week and spend the rest of the time hacking with friends on sensible horses.