TA / HLTAs unhappy with divisive attitude

[HLTA99]

Have been employed as a HLTA in a lovely school for about 2 years, having returned to work following a long career break. Previous career in corporate / professional background.
It has been a really rewarding experience, fantastic colleagues and wonderful children. Although it has been incredibly challenging, I have really enjoyed seeing their progress and feeling like I am making an actual difference. There are two other HLTAs in the school, both very experienced - and a number of class TAs and 1.1s. I ran intervention groups for KS2 and various classroom cover where required, PPA cover etc. Lunchtime / playtime cover was on a rota and everyone chipped in.
This term, we have a new Head - and she has arrived guns blazing, seemingly intent on implementing change. During her first staff meeting, she announced that all support staff would be required to cover a full hour lunch duty every day, as well as break duty. Teachers would no longer be expected to share this…ever.
She then went on to say that TAs were not entitled to full half hour lunchtime breaks, and would only be allowed a quick 5 minute break to use the toilet - during the day, and then 15/20 minutes to eat lunch after the lunchtime period is over. She stipulated we are not to leave the classroom for toilet breaks during class time, and this needs to be managed accordingly. Staff meetings would be 3.30 to 5.30 every Tuesday - and TA staff will be invited if relevant - otherwise they can help with teas for the teachers and prepare classroom resources for the duration!
I have never felt so talked down to in my life, with such an insultingly divisive address to staff. Are schools not supposed to be inclusive environments? Having worked in large male dominated corporate environments, this was the worst staff introduction I have ever experienced, and I feel like handing my notice in.

To too it off, the HLTAs have now been assigned to a classroom as opposed to working with different classes within the school, and the class teacher assumes I belong to ‘her’. She keeps making references such as ‘my TA’ and already I am in no doubt that she sees me as ‘her’ personal assistant, as opposed to someone who is there to assist the children. Feeling terribly unsettled, and aside from various contractual conflicts, surely it doesn’t make sense to utilise HLTAs in this way? The pay grade is somewhat higher than the standard class TA pay grade - but this new head clearly thinks we are all brainless minions who should be seen and not heard.
Would really like to hear what other schools do. Particularly in relation to lunchtime duties etc.
Thank you 😊

It's not divisive, it's just a fact that teaching staff and support staff have different contracts and roles.

20 minutes for a break after 6 hours of work is a standard rule for employees. Being on duty while children have unstructured time is a perfectly reasonable expectation, if being counted in your directed and paid hours. This is not possible for teachers, as the 1265 hours is mostly accounted for with timetabled lessons (which obviously don't take place during the children's lunchtime) - there are not 190 left for an hour's supervision each day the children are in.

Similarly, teaching staff (or any other workers) have no entitlement to just leave the classroom or a specific task until it's convenient to use the toilet.

Why wouldn't you prepare classroom resources during CPD, if asked to? That really does come under your role. If the class teachers are asked to create schemes of learning, write reports, or moderate marking, then surely you don't need to be there?

And you ARE there to support teachers, and a particular one in your case, not just 'the children'. You assist teaching and learning, while the responsibility overall lies with the teacher. Why wouldn't you want to support her planning, resourcing and delivery, with your skills?

If you want to train and qualify, then you could be in charge of a class, including directing non-teaching staff with your expertise and being exempt from being on duty at lunchtime.

It is the fact that she was stating the obvious in such a pointed way - most of us are well aware of the standard protocol on taking taking toilet breaks etc..it wasn’t just myself that found the conversation quite derogatory. We are all adults, and all behave professionally - qualified teachers or not.
I have worked in large global organisations managing 100+ departments on a six figure salary, and would never speak to my staff in that way. We were all entitled to the same breaks, all entitled to the same flexibility on when & where we could go to the toilet. It is ridiculous to single a particular group out and have to point that out as if we are children.
No wonder it is hard to find decent support staff, if that is the attitude many teachers adopt. Are egos really that over-inflated? Getting QTS isn’t that big a deal - certainly not compared to the qualifications I already have, and I would happily do it if I wasn’t so long in the tooth! If that’s what it takes to have mutual respect in an organisation, then really it is no wonder education is failing so badly. From what I have seen, good support staff are vital to a classroom - particularly in primary, and they are in serious short supply.
And I would also say that the primary function of any good HLTA, is to support the children. Whatever the ins & outs of helping with planning, delivering resources, under supervision etc. It is still primarily to help the children.

I should add also, that my contractual hours are 8.30 to 4pm - and I usually work well after 5pm. My contract does not stipulate MDS duties, and has 30 minutes for lunch, which I rarely get to fully take!
Last year I did my own planning & prep for the PPA lessons I covered across 3 year groups, as well as all my own intervention planning etc.
I also did marking and general admin etc. I covered multiple lengthy absences, with no extra pay or even classroom support - and still happily helped out with lunch duties as it was needed.
I have always done my upmost to help the teachers I have worked with, and they certainly never made me feel as though I was there for ‘them’. It has also worked very well, and I happily went above and beyond my contractual expectations. Being spoken to like this, without any attempts to understand who we are and our respective roles as individuals, just seems the wrong way to go about things, and certainly hasn’t been motivational for anyone. That is what we have found most upsetting.

If you're professional, follow the protocol and the reminder seemed obvious to you, then it likely wasn't aimed at you. Some people (teachers, TAs, whoever) will have needed it, and when they still ignore the expectations, will be dealt with separately.

I doubt all staff are entitled to the same breaks, though. You asked specifically about lunch arrangements. Without exception, the schools I've worked in (first when I was a TA, and then later as a teacher) do not pay teachers at the official school lunchtime. They're free to leave site and do not supervise children, except for extra pay. This is their reasonable break in the working day
(whether 25 minutes or an hour) because their directed hours are concentrated on lesson time - it can't take place without them. (Nevermind the fact that most teachers have to use this time to keep up to date with PPA). TAs, however, have a set amount of free time, taken either during part of the official lunchtime or even during lesson times - as their presence is not always essential for every part of every lesson. Other working time where children are out of class, they are directed to supervise. Roles like the librarian exclusively have their allocated time off outside the lunchtime slot, so they can open the library for pupils during school lunchtime.

Good support staff ARE vital to the classroom, but are still deployed by the teacher accountable. Your disdain for the teacher whose lessons to which you've been allocated, showed through your assertion that she didn't know you were there for the children, and were just there to support her. Teachers do know what support staff are there for (you've just pointed out that you plan your own intervention activities, which teachers can expect as they know that a HLTA role includes this!) and have the same overarching goal of facilitating good learning.

Perhaps 'getting QTS' isn't a big deal for you, but it is the difference here between being able to do the two different jobs you're comparing. It literally doesn't matter if you work outside your core hours - teachers have to do this too, and all staff are directed within the core hours as the Head sees fit.

Thank you @Curta - that’s helpful to know re lunchtimes. I know at the various prep schools my children attended, that lunchtimes were covered by teaching staff on a rota basis. It seemed very much the norm.
I certainly don’t feel ‘disdain’ for the teacher I have been allocated to, it is the just the way she has been phrasing things, which is completely at odds with all the previous teachers I have worked with, plus - it is not the role I previously had, so it’s a unwelcome change in that regards.
I completely understand the contractual demands and how the roles have very differing requirements - it is the manner in which this head spoke to everyone, that hasn’t gone down so well. Am happy to support the school and the teachers in any way I can, but not with an attitude like that. That’s the reason I feel so unhappy about it. Thank you for your replies. I do appreciate it.

The School Teachers' Pay and Conditions Document specifically says that teachers cannot be required to carry out midday supervision as part of their contract of employment as a teacher.

That doesn't apply in Academies, but many Academies follow the STPCD even if they don't have to.

Obviously independent schools like the prep schools the OP's children have attended can do what they like.

I would check your hours in you contract. If you have 30 mins for lunch, which is presumably unpaid, they can't suddenly insist you only take 15 - 20 mins. Same with the staff meetings, if you're only paid until 4.30 they can't insist you stay any longer. At my school, we were asked to do lunch duties, but this was paid for, as our current lunch time is unpaid. We could also refuse, which I did as I use that time for planning, marking and photocopying.

I feel for you op. No need for the new Head to talk down to any member of staff. What a way to drive staff away. It seems, with power lack of respect can follow for some. Her bullish attitude may come and bite her on the arse when goodwill sought from support staff...

TAs have covered lunchtimes in any school I have ever worked in-they cannot be directed to work during this time. Prep schools are very different.

I don’t quite understand the bit about staff meetings. If you are paid to work 3.30-5.30 then it’s perfectly fine for the head to direct you during that time. If you’re not, then they can’t!

It sounds like you are support staff who are now attached to a class, so yes, the teacher will be directing your working day.

Being a team is a really big part of a successful school/company. Respect for the knowledge and experience of everyone is important. Change is always unsettling and how change is managed help regroup. In this case sounds to have completely missed the mark. Fair enough, she has changed how support staff are organised- then explain why (maybe the teaching staff wanted it that way). You only need to work your contracted hours - teachers often forget, they have a catch all (somewhat unfairly), that they are required as professionals to work such hours as necessary for the role, which is beyond the directed hours (and an argument for why increasing directed time, would help equal out hours with other similar professions, but would be at odds with University contracts, However, most (if not all academics are now required to participate in research during non teaching times and teaching fellows have term time only contracts, for x number of hours and don't have the catch all requirement (same as support staff). Teachers may be covered by the old purple book conditions, but support staff are in LA schools covered by the green book (conditions for all LA staff, e.g. planners, housing, plus non teaching staff in schools), which has about having 30 mins lunch for an over 6 hour day (more than working time directive) and unpaid. Having set toilet breaks is very manufacturing/manual labour), but even car manufacturers have a system in place to allow staff to take a toilet break when needed but so as to not stop the process which is timed for each station.

I would see how it goes, but schools are struggling to recruit all staff and you only need to give a months notice probably.

It sounds to me like the HT raised it as teachers have expressed issues with it in their meetings with her and she wanted some ‘quick wins’

Yes I agree, that sounds very much like it @confusednewbie
Speaking about it with DH tonight, as a senior director in his company, he is shocked that such overt notions of superiority could be tolerated in schools. When we both started out in our professions many years ago, we were never made to feel inferior by senior colleagues in any way. Likewise with our own staff - just because someone wasn’t as qualified as we were at the time, did not mean they were not treated as important members of the team. They were vital in their own respective roles.
I think it is hugely damaging to have this kind of culture in schools towards support staff, particularly when they are so hard to lure, and it is interesting that those teachers I have worked with, who have also had previous professional careers, didn’t have superiority complexes or large egos like others who have not had that experience. Not all by any means of course!

Contractual conflicts aside, it hardly seems right to suddenly change someone’s role without any consultation or warning, regardless of whether it is ‘permitted’ or not. They may as well hire a lower grade class TA to do the job they now seemingly want, especially as budgets are so tight. Time to move on I think, it’s just sad as I really have enjoyed it up to now.

The following TES article summed up the sentiments I have felt on this issue quite well.

www.tes.com/magazine/archive/would-you-treat-pupils-way-you-treat-support-staff

The issue here isn't that the new head has changed things: it's within her power to do so and may be the right changes for the school in the long run. The issue is the apparent lack of respect that has been shown in making those changes in the way she has and announcing them in that way. That's concerning because it speaks to the wider culture and ethos that she, as a head, may inspire.

They may as well hire a lower grade class TA to do the job they now seemingly want, especially as budgets are so tight. Time to move on I think,

That may be exactly what they want-you to leave and someone cheap to replace you, it happens all the time with experienced (expensive) teachers. They suddenly find that they are deemed ‘failing’ teachers, when they are just more expensive than someone new.

Lunchtimes - Teachers do not do lunchtime duties unless they are SLT. They are not paid for this. Most schools employ MDS for this.

Breaktimes - some schools will give a duty to staff once a week. In some schools these are done by LSA / TAs.

Meetings - Unless your contract states that you are paid for the staff meeting, you shouldn't attend this. Most TA staff do not have staff meetings after school as part of their contract. Here, she is taking the piss. Check what you are paid for and politely point this out or ask how you can claim your overtime pay.

Being allocated to a class - This is standard in most schools. I think that the teacher saying 'my TA' is not meant to be derogatory. Most teachers love having a TA with them. My TA in English a few years back was fantastic and we worked closely to get the best for the kids. She would ask me what was needed sometimes, but generally working well together meant that she just got on with stuff. Sometimes, doing interventions or 1:1 but also sometimes marking spellings, organising stuff etc. You are probably being oversensitive here.

The tone of the HT does not sound great. Sometimes a new Head can be OTT initially as they want to put their stamp on things. She might chill out over time, but you are right to push back on meeting time.

It feels like this is a classic case of not what was said, but the way it was said.
I believe the cleaners are as equally important to running a school as the head is. And they should be treated as respected professionals too, we are all human and there to do our job, and should be treated as equals. The roles are different, just as they are between a teacher and a TA. A teacher has more responsibility and so they get more pay, but this doesn’t make them any more or less important. Every cog is vital in running a good school. I could not work under someone with the attitude of any roles being “below” and simply for the way she spoke, I would resign. There is a massive TA shortage at the moment and schools are crying out for support staff so find one that appreciates you and the role you bring

Yep. Definite shortage of TAs if our school typical. (I rather hope it isn't typical generally...). Vacancies and a lack of applications. Very tightly stretched support across the school impacting everyone. A high handed manner from SLT helps noone...

Everything you’ve said the Head has implemented sounds very reasonable to me and is what happens in my school re lunch breaks and working time. He/she has probably phrased it in a way that has got people’s backs up but nothing wrong with the plan. TA/HLTAs and teachers have very different types of contracts so you can’t compare.

I must admit I cringed when you said “getting QTS is not that big a deal”. How could you possibly know that? Sounds like you have a bit of an ego and think this sort of work is beneath you.

@Discodreams and @DinkyDaisy Thank you, that is exactly my point. Of course I am aware that they are different roles with different levels of responsibility, but regardless of one’s role, we all deserve acknowledgment and respect. For anyone who has worked in other organisations, it is palpably not the case in some schools. There really is quite a divisive attitude, and it’s ironic given the message that we try to instil in our children, in that very same regard.
It’s a sad fact that many teachers DO have huge egos. And no @Stellaroses, I stand by my comment on ‘getting ‘QTS’. Compared with the number of years and many gruelling exams it takes to become qualified in some professions - it is relatively a less big deal. That is what I meant - and anyone who has done this, will know exactly what I mean.
It has nothing to do with ego or superiority, but the fact that working in education, has revealed an unsavoury egotistical side in some aspects of my experience. Is that so wrong??
I have met some fantastic teachers, and I’ve met some who are not…as in any profession of course. However, there does seem to be a huge variation within education, and from a quality perspective, I do think children deserve better!
Anyway, my post was not intended to cause upset, and I’m sorry if any was caused by that comment.
I genuinely am interested in hearing other people’s experiences in schools, in terms of support roles and how they are treated.
As for my particular experience - over one week on and nothing has changed with the general attitude. The new head has introduced herself personally to every member of staff, except those who are support. Having been assigned to a class which I’ve tried to support as much as I possibly can, I ended the week on a decidedly unappreciated low. On a better note, I have an interview at an amazing prep school lined up for next week - so hopefully things are looking up.
Thank you everyone for your replies.

Your Head's attitude is exactly why support staff are leaving in droves and recruiting tricky.
Good luck in your interview 👍

Yes, to the poster! My experience exactly and the reason why schools are having huge recruitment and retention issues.

The problem partly arises from the gradual evisceration of school budgets.
Schools’ front offices operate with two or three staff where once there might have been double that number. (Secondary level).

TAs are being asked to work beyond their remits and some are covering for teachers whilst lacking the requisite knowledge base or communications skills.
Parents’ expectations have skyrocketed alongside employers’ fetishistic desire for educational credentials for all jobs. Support staff bear the brunt of the pressure as there’s a tendency to punch downwards by some of the teachers.
A lot of the teachers I’ve worked with would rather have graduated to other jobs. Jobs that come with higher status and respect. In this climate, somebody coming into the profession, perhaps a career changer or semi-retiree, who’s perceived as having had a more desirable profile, may be viewed with suspicion and envy.

In the meantime, there’s a drive for more career changers to become teachers. What they don’t tell you is that you’ll have to be a social worker, amateur medic and martial arts expert, to boot.
Working as a front-line administrator, I’ve seen parents spit and throw punches at teachers, treat the reception as their own personal concierge, while refusing to comply with the most basic requests - reason for a child’s absence - which staff are required to ask to comply with the law.

There’s an expectation by some parents that it’s acceptable to harangue the staff, while at the same time taking little ……out of school for shopping trips, cheap holidays and the fourth, three week absence, for a family funeral in a matter of months.
Safeguarding pressures are huge for all staff with the rise of long term conditions such as asthma, obesity, allergies. Everyone spends hours dealing with social workers, parental neglect (forgotten epi-pen, etc) establishing whether illnesses are faked (which we are not really trained to do, but are expected to nonetheless) as lots of the kids with learning/behavioural issues will try to get out of lessons.
There were 24 vacancies for admin staff in my borough, in a large city, last time I looked. Salary between £10-14 per hour. Usually no extra holiday pay. One was asking for the recruited person to be a receptionist, attendance officer, after-school clubs administrator, bursar dealing with staff pay, and organise all the school dinner numbers and chase school dinner debts - a thankless task, that last one, as many parents cannot/will not cough up. Try getting a bite to eat in that working day and you’ll be lucky!

The TAs can make teas for the teachers after school??!! No, no, no. An “us and them” culture in a school is very bad news. I’ve worked in a school with very clear tiers: SLT / teachers / TAs / cleaners - it was revolting and they had no loyalty (funny enough). I’ve also worked in a school where every single member of staff was treated with respect as a part of the same team all working together for the benefit of the children. So, so different. In your position I’d be sticking to my contract and looking to get out as quickly as possible

I would find it very difficult to manage my records and check everything was being covered if my TA/HLTA was doing their own thing. I planned the lessons as that’s my job, not the TA’s, and then ask them to deliver their part ( that I have made for them).

But then I left primary because of TAs/HLTAs undermining me and your comment about the QTS is off. The PGCE is a difficult course to pass as you are observed continuously.

It is so easy to think you can do a teacher’s job but you haven’t seen the huge amount of planning and work that has gone into to making it seem so effortless.

I think you’ll get a shock at the prep school. That’s where hierarchies really flourish.

@Nolongerteaching I have PGCE, without QTS. Many teachers at the school are qualified through direct training programmes without PGCE. I know the PGCE with QTS is intense, but it’s a relatively short duration of study compared with some occupational qualifications which can take a number of years.
I studied for my degree & masters while working full time in my 20s, followed by years of rigorous professional exams, working 50+ hour weeks throughout…I know full well how difficult it is to juggle work & study commitments - perhaps it’s a surprise to some, that not all support staff are lowly plebs!
I do think many schools / staff have problems with attitudes like this - thankfully by no means all.

As it happens, it turns out I’m not the only one who has felt a little aggrieved by this new head’s attitude, and four more support staff have since resigned. They are struggling to recruit replacements, and class teachers are falling like flies with the flu. Having covered classes nearly every day for over two weeks, with no support provided in class - no concessions on lunch time & break duties, and of course..no extra pay - it’s hardly any surprise that support staff are leaving in droves.

You are missing something here, OP.

Teaching and working in a school, whatever your role, is not the same as the adult workplace. We are so much more as we create the entire infrastructure and manage it on a daily basis.

You need structure and you need order in places like that for exactly that reason and whilst I get that the new head’s tone was off and you have sensed something that you don’t like, I feel the same from your comments. It doesn’t matter if you ran a FTSE 100 company before you came into my classroom but if you tried to one up me because you thought you knew what teaching was like because you have worked hard in other qualifications then you are bringing your ego into the classroom and disrupting me from doing my job. It’s those kind of power dynamics that are exhausting to deal with when we should be focusing on the children.

I suspect that the there has been some sort of enquiry behind the scenes and the teachers are being pulled up because of something that may involve TAs and so new head is trying to change that culture.