TA / HLTAs unhappy with divisive attitude

[HLTA99]

Have been employed as a HLTA in a lovely school for about 2 years, having returned to work following a long career break. Previous career in corporate / professional background.
It has been a really rewarding experience, fantastic colleagues and wonderful children. Although it has been incredibly challenging, I have really enjoyed seeing their progress and feeling like I am making an actual difference. There are two other HLTAs in the school, both very experienced - and a number of class TAs and 1.1s. I ran intervention groups for KS2 and various classroom cover where required, PPA cover etc. Lunchtime / playtime cover was on a rota and everyone chipped in.
This term, we have a new Head - and she has arrived guns blazing, seemingly intent on implementing change. During her first staff meeting, she announced that all support staff would be required to cover a full hour lunch duty every day, as well as break duty. Teachers would no longer be expected to share this…ever.
She then went on to say that TAs were not entitled to full half hour lunchtime breaks, and would only be allowed a quick 5 minute break to use the toilet - during the day, and then 15/20 minutes to eat lunch after the lunchtime period is over. She stipulated we are not to leave the classroom for toilet breaks during class time, and this needs to be managed accordingly. Staff meetings would be 3.30 to 5.30 every Tuesday - and TA staff will be invited if relevant - otherwise they can help with teas for the teachers and prepare classroom resources for the duration!
I have never felt so talked down to in my life, with such an insultingly divisive address to staff. Are schools not supposed to be inclusive environments? Having worked in large male dominated corporate environments, this was the worst staff introduction I have ever experienced, and I feel like handing my notice in.

To too it off, the HLTAs have now been assigned to a classroom as opposed to working with different classes within the school, and the class teacher assumes I belong to ‘her’. She keeps making references such as ‘my TA’ and already I am in no doubt that she sees me as ‘her’ personal assistant, as opposed to someone who is there to assist the children. Feeling terribly unsettled, and aside from various contractual conflicts, surely it doesn’t make sense to utilise HLTAs in this way? The pay grade is somewhat higher than the standard class TA pay grade - but this new head clearly thinks we are all brainless minions who should be seen and not heard.
Would really like to hear what other schools do. Particularly in relation to lunchtime duties etc.
Thank you 😊

SLT attitude is important though. Support staff are hard to come by at present. Respect should be a give at all levels.
Many support staff are highly educated but often in other fields. Their main role is to assist the teacher. Clue in the name!
However, expectations on TAs (in my recent experience) is ridiculously high for pay given. It is not just teachers that are drained by pressure.
It is no surprise that TA/ Support staff are running for the hills....

Also, those with a mass of experience and skills with children with complex needs should be respected more, in schools and financially . But that perhaps for another thread!

@Nolongerteaching I’m afraid you are missing the point I am making here - and somehow have tried to bizarrely reverse it onto me, and my ego?!
I have had fantastic working relationships with every class teacher I have worked with. The first class teacher I supported, is now a head of a large academy group, and the respect she showed for everyone, from the cleaners to her senior colleagues..was wonderful. She did not need to micromanage my every minute - she respected my input and I hugely respected her. Yes we had a timetable that we worked through together, but I was never made to feel ‘micromanaged’ or inferior.
In this particular post, regarding these new members of staff and their ‘superior’ divisive attitude - I am talking on behalf of every support member of our school. The MDS team are deeply unhappy, they too have not yet even been introduced or acknowledged - just barked at when things were going wrong. They are understaffed and overworked too and are also handing in resignations..nobody needs to feel unappreciated in their job, and as I said in my original post - this divisive attitude is just not necessary in any occupation. Least of all in schools.
It doesn’t matter what we have or have not done before, or how many letters we have to our name, we all deserve appreciation & respect.

@DinkyDaisy Yes completely agree. I am amazed how skilled these specialised support staff are, for such little pay and acknowledgment.

But you are dismissive of teachers expertise ( the QTS - awarded based on their observed days in school)

I personally think too much is put on TAs considering the pay they get and often they aren’t really getting adequate training to deliver the objectives pushed on them. They are crucial in a school absolutely - but they are support to the teacher hence her use of ‘my’ - believe me, if you do something wrong, it is the teacher who is blamed by SLT as we are responsible for everything that goes on in the classroom.

I find the fact that you are not really hearing what some of the other posters on here are saying as strange - we are trying to highlight that there maybe a different perspective to take into account based on the different roles in a school and you are dismissing that- yet you only really know your role.

@Nolongerteaching

“you are dismissive of teachers expertise” - Really? Please tell me where exactly I have been dismissive of teacher’s expertise. You commented on how difficult it was to obtain a PGCE..hard not to respond when I happen to have that too.

“You need structure and you need order in places like that….” yes I do know that. Other organisations need this too!

”It doesn’t matter if you ran a FTSE 100 company before you came into my classroom but if you tried to one up me because you thought you knew what teaching was like because you have worked hard in other qualifications then you are bringing your ego into the classroom and disrupting me from doing my job.”
Wow…as previously stated, I have had nothing but fantastic working relationships with all the teachers I have worked with and supported. I am still on good terms with all of them, and have nothing but respect & admiration for what they do, and the amazing people they are. They have never felt the need to big themselves up or feel threatened or undermined in any way. Other than a cursory ‘previously worked in x’, when specifically asked by colleagues - I have never discussed my past experience or qualifications in the workplace at all. I have no need to justify my ‘worth’ to anyone, and am doing what I do because I love it. It’s certainly not for the money!
I just find it sad that these divisive attitudes exist, and posts like this are part & parcel of that view.

I give up.

Sheer curiosity but how did you come to have a PGCE without QTS and why step down from a six figure role to a TA salary of all things??

Yes, a PGCE without the QTS rather implies it was harder to pass than OP thought it would be!

Qualified status will only be awarded if all teaching standards are met. You could write the essays to master's level, but not perform well in the classroom.

Unless OP is abbreviating Professional Graduate Certificate of Education and doesn't actually have the level 7 POSTGRADUATE qualification at all.

I think, my take out is that respect to staff must come from the top.
Not acknowledging certain staff (eg op mentioned new Head not introducing self to dinner staff) is plain rude.
Less aloofness, sniping between roles and more empathy, understanding and respect seems in order.

I stepped down my previous role after the birth of my 2nd child, and was unable to return as they had health issues and we spent many years in and out of hospital.
I studied for a PGCE without QTS - these courses are there for a reason - because I have no desire to gain QTS. I am in my 50s and it’s not what I want at all. I studied the course because I have a genuine interest in education, and particularly SEN.
Such personal, antagonist comments, is it any wonder education is in such a mess.

PGCE (non-QTS) are usually aimed at teachers who already have QTS via a non-PGCE route. They are pretty niche.

@DinkyDaisy thank you, that is exactly my take on all this too.

My original post was regarding the new head, and some new members of staff which she has brought, who have made our once harmonious workplace, feel quite divisive and uncomfortable for some. I posted a link to a TES article on that very topic - addressing staff in such a divisive way, has not gone down well with many members of the team, and consequently they are leaving. As such, I am no longer confined to the ‘ownership’ of one class teacher, but am now shared across three - covering PPA, class absences etc. Two of those teachers are superb to work with, the other seems to have a little superiority complex, and looks down her nose at support staff…when querying a past employee parent who had raised a complaint, she asked ‘was she a teacher, or just a TA’? When told they were a TA, she waved her hand in dismissal, and said they ‘could wait’. She comes into class and hands me her coffee cup to go and re-fill, she takes breaks during lessons, sends children to find me if I am held up for more than 5 minutes in another class, and generally has a dismissive air towards all support staff in general.
Perhaps she feels they are less well educated or worthy of respect somehow, but I’ve only ever seen this attitude in teachers who have had no other experience prior to teaching. I have never encountered this attitude in teachers who have had prior life experiences. One teacher I knew was a truck driver before - and turned out to be an amazing teacher.
It’s just not a nice attitude to have, and rather sad to think they are supposed to be leading by example.
@Curta I found your post to be quite upsetting, it was an awful time in my life, and your comment was actually hurtful. Dissing my choice of course and assuming I didn’t do QTS because I wasn’t capable, is exactly the kind of behaviour I am talking about. Sniping comments like this would be called out on the playground, so it’s sad to see it on an adult school staff forum.
@Nolongerteaching I do agree that having someone in the class try to undermine you would be unacceptable, but I don’t know why you assumed that this behaviour applied to me. All my working relationships have been hugely positive, and I greatly admire the effort and dedication that many of my fellow colleagues have towards their job.
Thank you for all your replies.

Perhaps you could tell us what you want from this thread OP. You don’t like the new HT or her approach. That is fine. Hand in your notice. Support staff are highly in demand and I am sure you will quickly find a better fit.

@ThanksItHasPockets What do I want from the thread?? I didn’t want anything, other than to hear other experiences on the topic, which others have kindly shared.
Schools are struggling with support staff yes, and I just found it strangely sad that some schools could be so seemingly divisive. It’s clearly not just an issue at my school, I know that. Many people work in support because they enjoy it and want to be a part of something bigger - but you’d need to have a very thick skin, to be treated with such disdain and get paid so poorly for it. Something needs to change.

Regarding the PGCE without QTS, yes many on the course were already QTS - however not all. Some were like me with prior non-education related qualifications, now working in education…wanted to enhance their knowledge etc.
Some were working in independent schools.
Not the norm I agree - but there were a few.

It does sound this isn’t a good fit for you-I’d apply for some new jobs and ask what the role looks like in other schools when you go and look around with regards to lunches.

It could be that with budgets being what they are, they are getting rid of HLTAs to cut costs and she is just going about in a crap way. We don’t have any higher paid HLTAs now-our TAs cover PPA and absence. There is no money in the budget.

Are you paid for the staff meeting slot?

@HLTA99 to be honest I wouldn’t normally have asked but I was really curious - nosy, really. I haven’t actually heard of non QTS PGCEs, although it is ages since I did mine.

I think the thing to take from this is that we all sometimes cause upset or offence without wanting to, meaning to, or realising that we are. I asked out of curiosity but it was interpreted in a way that I hadn’t intended it to. Without meaning to, I do think you come across as quite disdainful of qualified teachers - I don’t actually necessarily believe QTS is automatically the sign of competence, but it’s what we have to allow us to teach, so to speak. And I can see that if you’re saying ‘well I used to work in this field and earned this amazing salary’ - it can perhaps come over in a way it’s not intended. In any case, it doesn’t matter if the TA is an ex con (assuming nothing violent or similar!) or a minor royal - people are worthy of respect.

But respect doesn’t have to mean giving people everything they want either. I think some heads get round the fact TAs aren’t paid well by going overboard with the praise - I used to work with a head like this, lovely man but he used to gush about the support staff and how fabulous they were and how he couldn’t run the school without them. As a result, they loved him but also genuinely saw themselves as more important and more essential than the teachers and were quite difficult to work with as a result!

I wouldn’t recommend leaving yet but have another look at where you’re at at the end of the term, perhaps.

That’s interesting @Shinyandnew1 - Prior to this new head’s arrival, we had an acting head for an interim few months, and she was of the view that anyone could cover, so even agency supplied TAs that could barely speak English, were covering classes at one point. Agency staff were regularly hired as supply teachers also, and they were usually unqualified.
The new head has insisted that only HlTA’s or qualified supply teachers (as a last resort), can now provide cover - so I don’t think they are trying to change that in anyway. Having spoken to our deputy head about wanting to move on, along with the HLTA from another phase, she has been doing all she can to keep us there. I have since been offered a new role working with the SENCO team, as SEN provision is a huge issue for the school. Am currently mulling it over - but given they are struggling to recruit replacement TAs at any level - I can’t see the role materialising any time soon. We shall see…I do love the school and the children - and the staff I have worked with during the past 2 years.

Re staff meetings - I am paid 8.30am to 4pm. Staff meetings usually run from 4pm to 5 / 5.30pm, so no, I am not paid for this. Most TA’s have refused to attend.

Good luck op whatever you decide to do.
Does your school have a staff wellbeing policy? Have a look at that if it has. Should talk about valuing all staff. If not, perhaps a policy for governors to think about.
Also, if staff are leaving, governors should be involved in Exit interviews so make sure that system being used effectively at the school.
Hopefully your Head will wake up and realise respect to ALL staff should be a basic requirement of a Head's role.

@Spicycurry Thank you 🙂 - I wasn’t referring to your post at all, completely understand why you asked.

I wasn’t intending to be disdainful towards QTS at all - apologies if that is how it came across. It was just the fact that ‘some’ teachers seemed to feel it granted them an unusual sense of superiority, that somehow entitled them to look down their noses at support staff. Most teachers are not like that - but unfortunately it does happen.
I was just pointing out that not all support staff have minimal qualifications- some are very well educated and do understand how difficult obtaining professional qualifications can be.
My daughter once had a retired paediatrician as her class TA, and she was a very much valued member of the team. I volunteered at the school, and it was a lovely supportive place to work.
I completely agree there needs to be a healthier sense of perspective on doling out the praise…nothing worse than a you need me more than I need you mentality! 😄

@ThanksItHasPockets No I have not insulted the professional qualifications of anyone - as already explained. I am sorry you feel that way. There is really no need to be so hostile & accusatory. Thank you.

Extraordinary that you can give a genuine apology at 13.02 and a non-pology at 13.05. I am sorry that you felt that I was hostile and accusatory. I am going to leave you to it and wish you well.

Frankly OP if your manner in real life is anything like as condescending as your written style I can see why you might have encountered some hostility. You've used an awful lot of words to say that you don't like your new headteacher.

@ThanksItHasPockets I have been very clear about my QTS comment and why it was made. It is odd you are reacting to it so defensively. Clearly touched a little nerve it would seem.

@YippieKayakOtherBuckets People at the school are not happy with how they are being spoken to by our new HT and a couple of new members of staff. Consequently people are leaving. I’ve explained that yes, is that a problem? Should I not comment on these things on here? Or do you perhaps condone this kind of attitude?
I have not spoken to anyone in a condescending manner on here, other than to defend myself from hostile comments like this and the poster before. Thankfully, other posters have contributed in more genial ways.

Very few people aim to be condescending. One generally doesn’t get to tell other people whether or not they feel condescended to. I would think you’d have more empathy for that given the recent experiences you describe with this headteacher.

In relation to the pp - when the teaching profession is constantly belittled and criticised by everyone from the press to half of Mumsnet of course a derisive comment about teachers’ qualifications is a sore point and is going to ‘touch a nerve’. Your little swipe at them was very nasty indeed. I am also going to wish you well, hide this thread and leave you to it. There’s no need to respond to me.