Urgent advice needed from teachers! Whats my legal standing?

[SongforSal]

Help!

This may be outing, but I am past the point of caring.

As not to drip feed, this is the background.

My DS13 had childhood absence epilepsy. He has been symptom free for 2yrs, although his consultant in Oxford has warned he may yet get further seizures. Due to having dozens of absences every hour around the clock, he became academically behind, as he was effectively 'unconscious' standing up, ergo missing vital pieces of information.

Whilst at primary we had him assessed in YR6. The educational psychologist issued a report to say he was Dyslexic, and recommended a statement. We have been fighting ever since, and are getting no help.

DS is now in his third year of secondary. Almost on a daily basis he receives a detention-not for anything malicious, but what is deemed as unacceptable behaviour, talking, answering back etc. He gets a talking to at home to. However, sometimes the detentions are for reasons which I can't fathom, an example being a couple of weeks ago during a 2hr lesson, he urgently needed the toilet. The school has recently changed it's policy that children can not be excused for toilet breaks, they must go in between lessons. He told me he thought he was going to have an accident after trying to hold it in, and literally had to run out of the classroom. This resulted in an after school detention.

Moving onto this week, he has received another after school detention for talking and not concentrating in class (he finds it difficult to keep up with writing due to his dyslexia). I contacted the school to say he could not have an after school detention that evening, as his Dad was working away, and I was also 20miles away at work and would not be able to collect him in time (we live in a village location and he relies on the school bus). The deputy head told me if he failed to turn up to the after-school detention, he would received a 'Head' detention this Friday. When I explained it was impossible for me to collect him, I was advised if he failed to attend that, they would exclude him!

I am at a loss! Can a school exclude a child because I cant psychically collect him? All I need is a little notice for an after school detention, and I can arrange something, but this is too short notice. Does anyone know what our rights are?

A secondary school may have well over a thousand students. They can’t have parents dictating when a student should do a detention.

How does giving parents adequate notice and, yes, using a bit of common sense, mean that they are 'dictating' when a child does detention?

We are not the only ones with committments after school. Believe it or not, other people also have commitments too and I believe that parents/school should try to work together as best they can to be mutually supportive. We have 1500 pupils and manage it pretty successfully.

The text just stated 'your child has received an after school l detention on this date' It seems a standard text that gets sent. I am however, fucking raging with anger. A couple of weekends ago I supervised him doing a written piece of homework. It took him a good 3 hrs on and off, to research and he filled a page of paper with writing. Obviously because he is dyslexic, I know kids half his age have neater writing. Anyway, I flew into a blind panic when I saw he had left it on the dinning table, as I knew this would be another detention for failure to complete. Anyway, ds tells me he did indeed hand it in. He told me that the teacher took one look at it, and handed it straight back saying it wasn't good enough. Ds has told me he isn't going to bother with homework any more now. How the hell is that good enough for a teacher? Surely she could have given constructive criticism, or even given him permission to write on a pc as so it was more legible. Can't wait for this school meeting.

How do teachers in these zero tolerance schools actaully have the energy (and time) to be so petty? I reckon thye must eb exhausted too! FWIW , I ahve been teaching for 20+ years and have never given a detention (other than centralised ones when I was a HOY). Works for me!

Sorry wolfie I am with harry on this

I will support the school but not at personal cost or inconvenience to me or my other children.

Just to add to above, I think furthermore it is clear the current system is not working for the OPs son.

Detentions should not purely be punitive and it is a little concerning to see that there is such a definitive line drawn from some teachers. It smacks a little of wanting ‘revenge’ for children having disrupted the lesson in the first place.

Honestly if I were you I would be researching other schools that are genuinely inclusive or better at managing SEN children with behavioural and medical needs. This school sounds completely wrong for your ds and he sounds miserable, unsurprisingly.

I haven't read all the thread yet so apologies.

My DS has dyslexia and dyspraxia , SPD and probable ASD and if he was talking and not concentrating and didn't stop when asked I would expect detention to be given.
Dyslexia isn't an excuse and low level disruption is a pain the the backside for learners.

BUT

I have similar issues with getting ds home after school and Ds is classed as vulnerable so they make arrangements that DS is not to have after school detention. He has it at lunch or break or even before school.

We have also had issues with work being given back as not good enough. Usually by new teachers or cover teachers who don't know them and we have spoken to senco about this who makes sure she issues info to the teachers to stop this.

If he has toilet issues rather than just not going at break ask about a toilet pass.

God forbid you should have to put yourself out or inconvenience your other children to support the school when your child is misbehaving.

It isn’t being unsupportive in any way, shape or form to request that the detention is done on an alternative night (I have put that in bold bevaudd you genuinely seem to have the impression that only this night will do and that any reason why that might not be possible is deliberate refusal to cooperate with the school on the part of both the parent and the child.)

It is important to support the school. However, this should not mean that a child is put in risk of danger such as walking home through country lanes in near darkness or putting the family into financial difficulties - getting a taxi would not have been affordable for me at one point - or compromised the happiness of other children in the family - if picking the child in trouble up meant that another child could not go to a hobby or similar.

It’s important to follow rules within reason but I believe that to be so fixed and determined in the view that the child must be punished that any additional inconvenience that is created is his just dessserts is troubling and actually very unhealthy.

So the school and the arrangements of staff should be changed to avoid any inconvenience? Or maybe it should be a bit of a PITA and the child will reconsider their behaviour.
Typical week tutor meeting, department meeting, planning or marking time, moderation, detention, twilight INSET, parent or prospective parent evening at this time of year. Tutoring students and running revision sessions. So after school sessions get booked up.

The trouble is wolfie you seem to be so fixed in the mindset of punishment and sanction that you don’t really seem to be thinking in any rational way about whether the child’s behaviour will change.

We know that punishing children - smacking and humiliation and harsh treatment - do not work. With some children they may appear to work as the child is frightened to behave in a way that brings this sanction. However, it is led by fear not respect.

Giving a child a detention is not the same as the above examples - I don’t think it’s effective myself but schools have to work with what they have got - however the blind insistence that only this night will do and any extra inconvenience is just desserts - is not on.

You were/are a teacher? You must know that some children are bussed in from miles away and that some come from homes where the £10 or so a taxi would cost would severely compromise money for food and other essentials. In any case you have been on MN long enough to know this is the reality for some children.

We are the adults. We can have high standards without being so blinkered and determined that teenagers are out to destroy us that we respond in ways that are harsh and disproportionate.

A young person should not be given a detention after school if this puts his safety at potential risk. The law has confirmed this. Do you really not think that to insist they should is rather unhealthy and disturbing?

How is it putting their safety at risk? It simply doesn’t suit the parents.
Wait in the library, someone else collect, etc
This is the policy of the school and the insistence that teachers have nothing else to do except ensure every child who misbehaves gets to do a detention at a time that suits them is ludicrous.

Well said continuallychargingmyphone
I've always thought that teachers should spend a few years in the real world.
Wolfie, teachers like you made my children's lives a misery while they were at school.
Well behaved, polite boys both on the autistic spectrum, and one who is dyspraxic. Both intelligent, and it was a complete and utter waste of time for them to attend school. If only I'd home schooled them.

That was your choice. A school has to have systems and routines in place to try and ensure the best work and the safety of all children. They can’t pander to “it’s inconvenient”
I’m a parent too and absolutely didn’t make anyone’s life a misery.
Students can avoid detentions. They have a role in this too.

Actually, the law says otherwise wolfie

At work, I am frequently stopped. I have to sometimes say to people ‘I am really sorry, but I have a ; shall we meet about this at

That is normal life. With the best will in the world, sometimes we can’t be in two places at once, and it does, or can, compromise the safety of a young person in some circumstances. To give an example going back to my schooldays, a good friend of mine went into foster care and the placement the school found was miles out. If her foster parents couldn’t collect her, she would have had to catch no less than five buses.

That clearly isn’t reasonable, no matter what the ‘crime’ was.

It honestly sounds as if you want to get ‘revenge’ on children who misbehave. I honestly can’t fathom why you are being so insistent that only this night will do for the OPs boy.

Just stop, wolfie I am embarrassed for you.

I don’t believe you’re a teacher. Not for one second. What utter tripe.

Oh, and a little story.

I am a HOD in a secondary school. I have naughty children, like anyone.

I put a girl in detention a couple of weeks back for constantly shouting out, being rude and defiant when told to stop and arguing with me at the end of the lesson.

Same kid showed up to her detention begging to be excused because she’s on a sports team and wanted to play.

I could have gone down the ‘you should have thought of that BEFORE you’ route. Instead, I said ‘Go. Good luck!’

That girl now behaves perfectly.

I think if I’d stuck to Da Rulez there would still be an angry and defiant girl in my lessons, detentions would be set and we’d be stuck in a very negative and miserable (for both) cycle.

Thank goodness I am no longer a teacher. To have my own family impacted because parents would rather demand a different day than ask if the child can stay at school or go to a friend? No thanks. To expect me to arrange my working week around their convenience? No.
Thankfully my classroom management was good enough to rarely need to set after school detentions.

I wholeheartedly agree with your first sentence. Thank God indeed.

So you left because ... ?

Most schools finish before 330. If you don’t want to keep a kid on AS detention, don’t. Set them at lunch or not at all.

Throw your toys out of your pram if you want. You are not God, just as you have a life outside work, so do kids have a life outside school and their parents.

Wolfie it is not ‘demanding a different day.’

You are deliberately using highly charged language.

It is ‘I am happy for my son to do a detention. However, I am afraid due to my work and his fathers no one can collect him and since he relies on the school bus he would be unable to get home. Could we rearrange this for another day?’

It is really not the huge deal you are making it out to be.

Neither would him finding a safe space to wait for an hour or two until you can get him. But hey. Why should your child’s detention inconvenience you?
Not sure where I said I was God. Literacy levels must have really fallen in the profession.

Don’t talk bollocks wolfie

Where the fuck is the kid supposed to wait, for one thing?

School library
Town library
Friend’s house
Granny’s
Cafe
Anywhere safe for an hour or two.

Why not stick to harassing posters on the dog forum Wolfie? Just stop hammering home a half baked point

Don’t be fucking stupid wolfie

Not all schools even have a library and it’s unlikely whoever (wo) mans it will be happy with a kid sat there for hours. Town library? Yeah ok if it’s within walking distance and open (council cutbacks?) Granny? She lives within walking distance and is alive? Great. Reckon that’s the case here? Doubt it. Friends house? Ditto. And obviously the friend doesn’t have to be anywhere. Cafe? Again, if there’s one within walking distance and you have enough money for several drinks and snacks and it’s open until such time as the parent gets there.

I actually think you just take the most obtuse view possible for the sake of it. Either that, or you quit teaching because you couldn’t hack it and bear resentment to kids and their parents for that.