Teaching these days! Grrr

[Piggywaspushed]

So fed up of not being able to shout at a child in peace (as it were) without a) getting a load of posturing and lip and b) their parents complaining (about the teacher, obviously).

I used to love a good shout and it used to be rather effective.

That is all.

Very strange! Definitely not my experience of how the term 'positive relationships' was discussed and promoted during training.

I get you, when kids are being sick shits and not listening, shoutings the best way to be heard.

I think this is the closest I've seen to a trad/prog debate on MN

Those people that think shouting is about losing control aren't doing it properly. It's perfectly possible to turn to a class, deliver a fierce bollocking about being fed up of their inane wittering (or whatever), then calmly turn back to the board and continue talking completely reasonably about fractions. It's acting, just like if you see a bunch of miscreants doing something suspicious while on duty and you stride over to them and say 'what is going on here?!' in a stern voice, while inside you're thinking 'I hope this won't involve paperwork, will I still have time for a wee?'.

Definitely not my experience of how the term 'positive relationships' was discussed and promoted during training.

Is that an appeal to the authority of teacher training?

Thing is, sometimes the kids won't like you. Despite your best efforts to build a positive relationship, they may even hate you. They still have to behave and get on with the work, you can't go to your HOD and say 'Jonny thinks I'm a twat and my lessons are boring, can I swap him for a nicer kid please?'.

What patronising replies noble.

Yes. Well aware that shouting doesn't indicate a loss of control and that it's a performance.

Also aware that pupils may hate you and you can't swap them.

Point I'm making is purely to do with positive relationships not being about trying to be their pal and asking about their weekend but instead about having clear expectations of one another and an effective working relationship. One where they trust you to support them in learning. You can still shout and have this positive relationship. I believe though that it's the relationship and not the shouting that's the motivating factor in a child's achievements.

I also find it cringeworthy all these strange boasts of 'teacher power'. Hearing people talk about 'striding over', 'hairdryer' bollockings and expressing regret that sarcasm is no longer acceptable to make a pupil feel like shit, for example, is really very sad.

Do you not think a pupil should ever feel a little bit bad? They are human beings like the rest of us and can sometimes just be deeply unpleasant. Why I should pussyfoot my way around someone who was waging a one person campaign to undermine me and show me up is beyond me. I'd rather not shout. I'd rather not shout at my children at home either but I do. The latter is less effective because it is an emotional relationship. Shouting at school is part of 'the act'.

But, anyway, as I said, the shouting was not done in front of the class so was not a 'public humiliation' and the 'concern' seems to be about what I was cross about rather than how my voice expressed that crossness.

Anyone who hasn't raised their voice at a student like the one I shouted at either a) is not really a teacher or b) teaches in an extraordinarily unusual school or c) can't shout (which some people can't). I also do not accept that sarcasm is always damaging. Ther'es loads of it on Mumsnet!

I honestly think those who tell a teacher of (in my case) 20 years experience that they have 'lost control (I have been a HOY and do regular CPD on behaviour management!) is the patronising one.

One thing students respond really really negatively to is being patronised.

I also find it cringeworthy all these strange boasts of 'teacher power'. Hearing people talk about 'striding over', 'hairdryer' bollockings and expressing regret that sarcasm is no longer acceptable to make a pupil feel like shit, for example, is really very sad.
There is a time and a place for a raised voice.
There is a time and a place for a quiet voice.
There is a time and a place for getting to know you chats.
There is a time and a place for taking control of a situation.
Shouting regularly is ineffective.
Shouting and losing it isn't good.
A shout as in firm raised voice isn't the same as losing control. It is a vocal tool. A teacher should be able to raise their voice, control the volume, use the tool and return to a calm friendly speaking voice immediately after.
Having a shout doesn't mean you hate children. It means you have a tool.
Believing in discipline doesn't mean you never get to know your children.
Sarcasm isn't inherently bad. You have to know your students and judge it accordingly.
Sarcasm in a friendly tone when you have good relationships can be much more effective than going down the wordy explanations route.
Sarcasm should never be used to be mean

I have a shout. I rarely use it. Often i can communicate my feelings about behaviour with a single look whilst remaining very friendly and continuing teaching. But sometimes a shout is an appropriae tool.

Anyone who thinks there is one way to do things has probably lost the debate. It's about selecting from a tool kit based on you, your class, knowledge of the students, the situation.

I shouted at a year 9 boy in my very first lesson with him. I can read students well and it was obvious that if I had not put him in his place quickly he would think he was boss. It was short, very effective and we have got on marvellously since with a very 'positive relationship'. I did not scar him for life.

I was right about him. He is rather full of himself. Lots of student either fear or dislike him and he is very domineering in some lessons.

Teaching is to an extent about power. We are the adults. We aren't 'first among equals'. They do need to learn that the relationship is not meant to be a tussle and that they don't always have right to reply. I don't aim to intimidate or bully and we have all seen teachers who are bullies - but I do need to assert my authority over young people who don't always understand or accept the authority of adults. They also do need to be taught manners, and sometimes need to (even at age 15) be told what things are considered rude and insolent. It seems to me that they increasingly are not taught this by primary school teachers, other secondary teachers or by their parents.

Examples (provided by DS2) of knowingly rude behaviour : loud sneezing, loud 'bless yous' , going 'iIm sooooorrry', saying 'Oh my Goood' when told off. 'yawning loudly. , loud apparently uncontrollable hiccups This has definitely become more commonplace. And all, if not accepted as rude by the child would definitely, after a while, incur my wrath. Either a sending out (actually I was always told that was weak), a stern talking to inside or outside of the room, a withering look , a lecture or - if all of those failed , or if the child themselves shouted (they do you know) I would and will shout. If they apologise, learn, move on ,and if the teacher also puts it away and forgets about it afterwards and juts carries on then no damage has been done. Some non shouting teachers are actually very fussy, quite vengeful and full of processes and administrative procedure And are often the 'telling someone else in the hope that they will deal with it' types.

I am not going to go into the exact details of why I shouted at the student the other day but, suffice to say, many other strategies had been deployed first (although I can also do the 0-60 in 2 seconds and back again approach).

I would add that I have increasingly perceived that students think of most female teachers as soft targets these days and , particularly when they are unknowns in a corridor, the default is to be rude and difficult when reprimanded. Definitely in those circumstances I do relish showing them who is actually boss.

I always tell my students that I'm not into 'earning respect'.
From the second they walk in my room, every person in the room (staff or student) have the right to be treated with respect.
If i am talking, they are listening.
If a student is sharing an answer, they are listening politely.
Students are polite and courteous to me and other students.
I am polite and courteous to them.
We all follow basic rules and expectations so we can learn. They are the foundations of a safe and secure learning environment.

There is another level of respect above that which is earned and comes with time (e.g. students respecting staff because they are a good teacher with good subject knowledge/ additional respect because you've fought their corner or helped them out or gone the extra mile etc) but there is a basic threshold which is non negotiable.

It's why I hate it when i hear students say things like ' we mess on because miss can't control us'. Those students have decided (like some posters on here) that them behaving like decent polite people is dependent on the teacher demonstrating she can control the class or that the class would behave if only the teacher did more get to know you activities to get buy in.

Sorry haven't read full thread, but OP this to me indicates that it's the school's behaviour policy that is letting you down:
A student won't give over a phone for example

In my school, open defiance = being sent out to isolation. This is rarely needed as students are all well aware that it is enforced.

I seldom raise my voice as I find it disempowering and I don't like make disputes 'public' but I am a huge fan of using an almost intimidatingly low voice to give very quiet 1:1 bollockings. The student doesn't get any public platform to cause a scene.

Also agree with you about putting upstarts in their place first lesson to avoid a whole year of piss taking. As a teacher, I come across as extremely unreasonable to the kids at first, but once they understand that I don't take any crap, I am more lenient.

I have found it useful to raise my profile as a disciplinarian by being super strict and horrible when on playground duty, which we have to do once a week. Then, when year 7s and 8 who have only ever met me in that capacity turn up in my classes, they're like 'Woah, it's that crazy bitch from the playground ' and I find that they don't mess about. Then over time we get to know and like each other, but that initial reputation for being strict is very helpful .

See i won't target known upstarts in the first lesson. I think that risks setting the 'i already know what you're like' tone to the relationship. As far as I'm concerned they are like any other child in the classroom. I outline my expectations of everyone. Then am fair and consistent with everyone. I'm not going to bollock child A for a minor thing whilst having a quiet word with B because that would be unfair.

I have a child in one of my classes who is a known disruptive character. I've never needed to raise my voice at them/put them in their place etc because they saw very quickly that I'm relentlessly firm and fair.

Totally agree with your post piggy about how female teachers are seen as soft targets, the default being to be rude and an increasing lack of manners.

I think some of it is down to increasing parenting through explanations. ‘You hit Billy and we don’t hit people because it hurts them and makes them sad, now what do you think you should do?’. So now every instruction demands an explanation and every interaction about behaviour is a negotiation.

I’m a TA (secondary) and those (younger, it has to be said) teachers who never shout and go softly softly are shit. They don’t get their message through and the kids have zero respect for them.
Those who do use their voice occasionally get much better results.

I was left in charge of year 7 for 15 mins this week due to a medical issue and I did need to raise my voice. The class know me, they know I’ll have a chat/giggle with them when appropriate, so a slightly raised voice told them a lot. I didn’t have to do it again...

I'm with you OP. Feel free to shout at my DS if they are ever in your class. They need to learn the consequences of their behavior and they are emotionally robust to cope with a bollocking.

There’s a massive difference between raising your voice a bit to get the attention of a rowdy class and shouting.

So it all comes down to a definition of 'shouting' really. My definition I guess would be taking a deep breath and projecting my voice from my diaphram, all very controlled and not entering int o the realms of bellowing and definitely no voice cracking.

I don’t think it all comes down to that elephant

Shouting/raising your voice a bit over a noisy class - yes.
Standing there shouting at a class - no.

I also don’t like it when teachers single a child out and blast at them.

Oh but you're wrong dolphin. That would be common sense.

There should be no element of raised volume at all, ever. That's the sign of someone who is a crap teacher with no control and also who likes to make kids cry.

It does make me wonder what all these 'never shout/raise your voice (assuming we're agreeing they are different to losing it)' would want us to do if a group of children turned on their DC, was verbally abusing their DC, was kicking the living daylights out of their DC.
I mean, we could stride across, shout, difuse the situation and give the kids a bollocking for utterly disgusting behaviour.

Or we could not stride (because that's power tripping), and use a quiet voice to say excuse me. It's not very kind. Excuse me everyone. I would like you to stop calling Charlie names and come over here. Now let's have a talk about this. It's really not very nice for you to kick and call names. How do you think Charlie would feel?
They know how Charlie would feel. That's why they were doing it.
A How dare you verbally abuse and assault a fellow student! Behaviour like that it utterly disgusting. Students come to school to be safe and to learn, not to be targeted & abused by other students. Get your things. We are going to the head of year/senior leadership is absolutely appropriate. Restorative conversations come later.

Yes, but Maisy, what you’d do in an extreme situation isn’t what you would do in day to day life. That does not need explaining.

I wouldn’t deal with that situation using either of your examples, though.

It depends on the situation.
Need to disperse a large group of students quickly to get to the centre of the action - shouting is appropriate

Group of 3-4 students, probably a 'with me. Now' said firm and quiet would be ok.

There is a time and a place for most things in a toolkit. The trick is using them appropriately.

I find people who claim 'shouting never works' / 'a quiet voice is more effective' as irritating as people who claim there's one way to teach, one way to manage behaviour (usually with the smugness of 'obviously i do it the better way').

I don't like it and I don't do it aren't good reasons for other teachers not to do it, Dolphin. Different teachers have different methods and styles and that's fine. We are different people.

To an extent I agree esker that our behaviour policy gives students too much control, or , to be precise, the quibbling form SLT over how poor students' behaviour was!

Phones have got out of control in my school. And many others I suspect. A lovely girl told me the other day she had her phone confiscated and was so angry she punched a desk...

But I also don't go for the bizarre Michaela approaches to discipline with those weird silent corridors and that follow me with your eyes thing. But this week I found it tempting. Our students shriek and screech in corridors and my ears are sensitive!

thanks eightyone

I'm not a fan of the increasing trend for 'no excuses silent corridor' types.
I do believe in a strict classroom though, high expectations and firm/fair classroom management.
What's actually interesting is that when we did student voice last year, the overwhelming majorty of students actually prefered strict teachers (range of ages and abilities). To quote one student "I'm not going to name names because you've told us not to, but there some teachers who are fun in y8/9 when you don't do much but you'd be upset if you got them at GCSE and there are some teachers who annoy us now because they're picky but you'd be really happy to have them next year".