Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
The staffroom

Whether you're a permanent teacher, supply teacher or student teacher, you'll find others in the same situation on our Staffroom forum.

Original poster

Schools advertising for 'unqualified teachers'

231 replies

roamingespadrille · 26/06/2017 17:29

This is what a number of our local schools are advertising. Very low pay attached to it. Job description is a full teaching job.

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 02/07/2017 10:37

but good teachers are born, not made

And this type of thinking is where a lot of the problems start. If you can't do it it's because you're not a 'born' teacher, you don't have the talent, you should do something else. I've seen plenty of crap teachers and the main issue against their improvement was an inability to act on feedback.

I'm a good teacher, I've got there through hard graft, reflecting on my practice, hour and hours spent learning how to be better, from other people who are good at what I'm not.

PuckeredAhole · 02/07/2017 10:38

Why should I work my arse off to get qualified so someone can be paid as much as me up until M3??

We are devaluing teaching yet again. I don't want a bunch of idiots teaching my children.

Also, PGCE is child's play compared to Teach First. TF was a vertical line more than a learning curve!!

PuckeredAhole · 02/07/2017 10:41

herat I disagree. I attended a private school in my youth where none of the teachers were qualified. They had MAs, PhDs etc but they were so un-inspirational, had no idea how to put together an engaging lesson and relied on the fact that we already were clever and well behaved. They would never have gotten away with this in the state sector!

TollgateDebs · 02/07/2017 10:47

A great many lessons are taken by unqualified staff in schools and have been for years. One in which I worked, left the disengaged students with non teaching staff for 80% of the week, with the results you'd expect for the students.

ChipsForSupper · 02/07/2017 10:52

I know lots of qualified teachers who aren't very good.

Yes, I know some doctors who aren't very good so let's scrap that 5 years at medical school malarkey.

Qualifications are just a bit of paper. (I have no idea what you learn on a pgce course),

So, you have no clue about something but are pretty confident that your sweeping statement is accurate?

good teachers are born, not made.

What makes you think this? Have you observed a group of untrained but 'born' teachers over a number of years? Have you compared to them to a group of teachers who were trained? Or are you thinking of teachers who you remember from school who were 'naturally' good? Because if it's the later - they were probably all properly trained.

Sure, there are things you need to learn, like.....how to identify a SEN

Shock Confused Grin

Badbadbunny · 02/07/2017 11:24

herat I disagree. I attended a private school in my youth where none of the teachers were qualified. They had MAs, PhDs etc but they were so un-inspirational, had no idea how to put together an engaging lesson and relied on the fact that we already were clever and well behaved. They would never have gotten away with this in the state sector!

Yes, they do get away with it in the state sector. My son goes to a selective grammar and some of their teachers are really poor and do get away with it because the kids want to learn so can make up for the shortfall in teaching ability. To say that it doesn't happen in the state sector is simply not true.

HandbagKrabby · 02/07/2017 11:41

One good thing about pgces are that if teaching isn't right for someone, they can find out in a relatively risk free way for themselves and the pupils. Chucking someone in pretty much full time and seeing what happens is a big risk. If a school cannot recruit or cannot afford qualified staff, it is unlikely an excellent supply teacher will be found to cover a new starter who goes down half way through the year.

noblegiraffe · 02/07/2017 11:47

We had a dreadful PGCE student one year. When it was obvious they were struggling they had their teaching load reduced, and were shuffled around the classes so no one class suffered too much. Then when they were encouraged to leave quit, the class teachers all just stepped back in. It would have been a nightmare if they were the class teacher.

user1497480444 · 02/07/2017 13:01

Now, it's never mentioned as it's all Growth mindset who on earth is still droning on about growth mindsets??? Thats not even just BS, its ancient, obsolete, totally defunct BS

Sure, there are things you need to learn, like the exam system, how to identify a SEN

well, the exam system changes constantly, and the exam boards run training on it regularly, which teachers are expected to attend, or to attend a breifing from someone who has gone.

As to SEN, well, I deal with around 50 different types, am not medically trained, although I have studied some neurology, I learn about each type of SEN, or relearn it, as it appears on my register. I couldn't keep all 50 odd types in my head, anyway.

user1497480444 · 02/07/2017 13:04

of course things have moved on since thousands of years ago no, actually the human brain learns things the same way as it always has.

user1497480444 · 02/07/2017 13:06

We had a dreadful PGCE student one year. When it was obvious they were struggling they had their teaching load reduced, and were shuffled around the classes so no one class suffered too much. Then when they were encouraged to leave quit, the class teachers all just stepped back in. It would have been a nightmare if they were the class teacher.

Unfortunately, a lot of truly dreadful PGCE teachers are just rubber stamped. Some schools pretty rigorous, some have no real interest in assessing quality at all. I've known teacher pass their PGCE without even teaching on their teaching practice! depends ho conscientious the school is.

SnickersWasAHorse · 02/07/2017 13:06

As someone who believes that water in any form, even from a spring or stream, is not a natural drink I don't think you are in any position to talk about what may or may not be bullahit.

noblegiraffe · 02/07/2017 13:11

Oh dear god how did I miss that thread? Shock

user1497480444 · 02/07/2017 13:20

water from springs and streams is natural, and has a lower water potential than water from taps and bottles which is not natural, I have explained this, and I am not going to go on and on about it here, I have told you the easily verifiable scientific facts, if you don't want to know, and prefer to carry on living in ignorance, really, really, that is your decision, and fine by me. It is also completely irrelevant here.

SnickersWasAHorse · 02/07/2017 13:57

You said any water on the other thread.
I know that commenting on someone's posts on a different thread is seen as poor form but I think it is worth mentioning so people can see the level of 'research' you do.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2966857-To-be-very-cross-that-schools-incompetence-may-have-made-DS-ill?pg=1&order=

user1497480444 · 02/07/2017 14:10

I'm sorry if you find the science hard to follow, but I'm sure you could look up some basic, clearly explained sources if you actually wanted to know, and don't feel I've simplified it enough for you, but that is totally irrelevant to this thread.

noblegiraffe · 02/07/2017 14:16

I think it's worth knowing about given this comment!

your faith in "modern research" is quite touching, but misplaced. What works is what always works. What works now, worked 100 years ago, 500 years ago, 1000 years ago, etc.

Someone who distrusts modern teaching methods fits quite nicely with someone who distrusts modern water.

DanyellasDonkey · 02/07/2017 15:16

User who on earth is still droning on about growth mindsets??? Thats not even just BS, its ancient, obsolete, totally defunct BS

If this is directed at my previous comment, I can assure you that Growth Mindset is very much alive in my area and we are encouraged to display posters and get children to do this shite in our classrooms.

noblegiraffe · 02/07/2017 16:20

Mindset was only published about 10 years ago, so hardly ancient. Peak mindset was about 2-3 years ago I think. Still quite popular because ways of getting kids to overcome fear of failure are desperately needed. I think Dweck has been quite annoyed at how her work has been turned into a magic pill but I think she really jumped the shark herself last year, with 'false growth mindset'.

shanefolan29 · 02/07/2017 16:24

Noblegiraffe-i am improved now and in a steady job although still struggle in areas but it was through experience I got there not the bullshit hours of lectures and exams on educational theory i completed...

Ask any successful teacher about what they know about educational theory they did at college, I'd put my life on it that they would not have a clue. Some of the best teachers I know in my school are non trained and me having had 4 years teaching degree they are well above me, some tas I know are even much better at me and even much better at some of the people I did my training with.

Some of the best people I got private tuition for in subjects like A level Maths and Science had never taught the subjects in their lives...

Teaching is a skill as is working with people and leadership of both other students and staff-no amount of educational theory can train you that and no amount of fancy degrees, phds or courses on education can measure a teacher's ability .

I have known people who have phds in education[namely several of my university lecturers] but were completely useless in the classroom and left it as quick as they could-they even confessed that themselves. Some are naturally excellent at Teaching, some are good, some are wobbly and need to work at it while others are very poor.

CrowyMcCrowFace · 02/07/2017 16:29

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ for troll hunting. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

DoctorDonnaNoble · 02/07/2017 16:45

User - there's no need to be so patronising. To be perfectly blunt Noble understands all the issues you have posted on a lot more accurately than you.

DoctorDonnaNoble · 02/07/2017 16:49

As for the SENCO without training. That is nonsense. SENCOs now have to be qualified teachers and at least working towards a specific masters level qualification (not a full Masters but a unit). This is why our rather excellent SEN TA can't be SENCO. This was a Govian change. I'm surprised you are unaware of it. Actually, I'm not.

SarfEast1cated · 02/07/2017 17:46

I've really enjoyed my PGCE, have spent 9 weeks in a Y2 class then 12 weeks in a Y5 class, with weekly observations by class teacher and mentor. I have learnt a huge amount and was able to teach whole days at the end with a CT standing by in case I did anything stupid. It was really valuable. Previously I did a degree in education studies, so learned a lot about Piaget, Vygotsky, Bruner etc, and these were touched on again during the PGCE but not in a huge amount indepth. Dylan Wiliam's AFL was stressed a lot. It's not a long course, and they try to make it so that school practice makes up the majority of it. I guess my problem with the PGCE is that I would have liked it to be 2 years rather than 1, I still feel like I am scratching the surface of some of the subjects, but it's up to me to plug the gaps.

user1497480444 · 02/07/2017 20:37

Mindset was only published about 10 years ago, so hardly ancient no, because it is a load of bollox. It wouldn't have worked 100 years ago, and it doesn't work now