Sending a child out of the class

[Daredevil]

I've name hanged for this as school have found Internet posts in the past.

I'm a parent whose dh is s teacher. Dh has a strong opinion on an incident that happened with ds & I wanted to know opinions from other teachers as to what happened.

Ds (year 7) we strongly suspect he has an ASD but getting a diagnoses is virtually impossible due to funding. We were refused a referral when he was in primary despite the school nurse & senco appealing. We are currently waiting for an ed psych assessment.

Ds passed for a grammar school. It's been a difficult transition, he's had several meltdowns at school & each time I've been called to take him home but recently he's been doing well although he gets distracted/frustrated easily. He appears very young/immature for his age & he is incredibly disorganised.

Last week he fell & hurt himself & had to have a dressing on his hand but it started to heal nicely. However the one day it was bothering him (dressing off by this point) & he was distracting others because he was distracted by his hand. So he got a reprimand but unfortunately he'd had several reprimands about stuff that week forgotten kit, not handing in homework he had done etc) so it triggered a detention.

He got really upset about this as he felt it was unfair & started arguing with the teacher. Teacher said he was very rude & sent him out of the classroom (unfortunately ds doesn't always realise when he is appearing rude especially when he's het up about perceived unfairness).

Was there any way this could have been handled better or did the teacher do the right thing. His head of year says this behaviour is not acceptable & the other students can't see him get away with stuff.

Unfortunately the situation escalated & he's now in big trouble.

Ds2 recently has a new teacher, she has a ds with ASD.
There has been more understanding since she started than in the rest of the time he has been at the school.
I suspect having a child with SN and having to live it and understand that child inside out will mean that you have greater understanding of other DC with SN.

Teachers are there to teach - deliver lessons they have planned - engage and encourage those who want to listen - DD class has 3 children with autism - each different - all three distract others - there has never been a class chat on why they are different or indeed what the class can do to be more understanding - (ie ignore the tapping - he needs to do that!)

That said I don't see why the class should suffer constant interruption because there's a lack of budget to help these kids and therefore help the class

Moonandstars it's all very well for you to ask that, but you just cannot leave a class of 30 unattended and not be in the room or teach them for 10-15 mins while you sort out one child. That is not on and not fair on the whole class, I'd imagine there would be parental complaints from the 30 parents of abandoned children. If this child doesn't have a statement he won't be entitled to have a TA with him, I'm not sure what people think should happen? A teacher does not have time in an hours lesson to give each child more than 1-2 mins one on one time so why should they abandon the whole class to deal with an individual? Removal from the room and a quick chat outside and then back in the class if they are calm or sent to anther class/head of year if not.
I can see this may seem harsh to a parent who wants their child to have the one on one time but you also have to realise that in a school of hundreds they are just one individual and an individual who was arguing and disrupting the lesson so needed to be removed. I know this seems harsh but that is the reality. I'd keep pushing for a statement so at least the child would have one on one support in some lessons.

I would have asked him to come outside for a couple of minutes and dealt with it then. Am a teacher and have two children with asd. I would still have reprimanded him for carrying on after I had asked him not too and answering back though.
We are hugely short of ta's at the mo. I would ask for a time out card and a liaison for him in pastoral support.

Sparkly has nailed it.

It's a huge learning curve from both sides. As a teacher I find having children with ASD in the classroom can be challenging. Every pupil presents differently and what is 'naughty' from one pupil is good from another. Parents complain about their children being unsupported but want a 1:1 in every lesson with no funding. It's tough for us as teachers too. We do our best and try our hardest but we are still human.

In my classroom I would have removed him for arguing. Hopefully I'd have removed him before he got to that stage, recognising the signs of a meltdown beginning. He would have gone to the SEN room to calm down.

Sparkly, I'm not saying that and I know how hard it is. I am a teacher and I'm also a mum of a child with special needs. So it's not 'all very well for me to say that'!! No one is asking for their chd to be allowed to do whatever they like, but a teacher that at least 'wants to understand' is a good start. One size doesn't fit all unfortunately. How easy that would be! There are always challenging chd in every class and they aren't always the ones with special needs. Of course budget cuts and lack of funding make teachers jobs extra hard when there is lack of support for chd who clearly need it...I'm not saying it's teachers faults, nor was the OP other posters, as far as I understood. But I've been quite saddened by some of the responses and attitudes towards chd with special needs as being less worthy of an education than the other 29 chd in the class!

MoonandStars no-one has said the OP's child was less deserving than the other 29, just that all 30 need his/her attention so one cannot monopolise it. And no one has said that a teacher should not 'try to understand' I would be very surprised if any teacher was not doing her utmost to understand. But understanding doe not mean letting one child ruin the learning for everyone else.

I would hope that is true. But it hasn't come across like that to me from a lot of posts I've read here.

Exactly MrsGuy all of those 30 kids are as important as the OPs one. I think parents (and teachers) struggle to understand the change from Primary to Secondary. In Primary you'd have one teacher who knows all the class very well. In secondary the teacher may only see each class for an hour a week, and will teach over 600 children in the week, you just can't expect one teacher to know every inch of a child's personality. Yes they can be aware of their needs through an IEP but if the child doesn't have one then it makes things more difficult.

I doubt he teaches over 600 kids as there are 5 (I think) teachers of his subject & only around 800 kids in the school

I am thinking the same as stressfree - I would have asked him to step outside, set the class a task to get on with and then spoken to him outside. If that calms him, great, if not he may have to go to another class or do some jobs for me (sending notes to teachers etc) to calm down. I couldn't leave my class for a long time to deal with him as they can get up to all sorts very quickly.

I can't let a child distract others, nor allow them argue back - but there are better ways of dealing with it than simply putting him outside the door.

That sounds a much better strategy iora

It was right to remove the child who was being disruptive and extremely rude. The teacher has the whole class to consider.

Why didn't your son keep his hand down or ask the teacher if he could leave and get his hand redressed?

Poltergoose. I have had a similar and very good response to DS year 8 Aspergers and Dyslexia. DS can at times be a bit of handful in class due to frustations based on 'boredom' or lack of understanding of what is required. He has a tendency to shout out in class, when he knows an answer and let everybody know. The teachers are aware of this , so when he is starting to get noisy or a nuissance to other pupils , they show him a yellow card . This means he can leave the classroom for five minutes to cool down. The yellow card also tells him that if he continues he will go to the 'supportive learning' room. This tends to work because, he does not want the embarrasment of being sent there.

The point raised earlier in the thread about, people assuming ASD/SEN means low attainment is of particular relevant to DS and that needs to change. DS is naturally more academically intelligent than his youngest sister DD3 yr 10 at grammar school. However, the majority of grammar schools neither have the resouces or the know how in dealing with such conditions. This is why we did not even put DS in for the 11+.

There is hope though that the perception of ASD = low achievement is being whittled down given that Simon Langton Boys Grammar School in Canterbury have got a specialist ASD department.

It is illegal for the school to phone up and ask you to take him during the school day unless it is a formal exclusion. They should not be doing that!

To be fair to the school each time he was in no fit state to remain at school. Usually sobbing or if not absolutely silent & disconnected/in a trance almost.

I find it appalling that a child collected from school , because of a breakdown 'Mental Health' problems goes down as an Exclusion !

No wonder this country has problems with the stigma of Mental Health.

Children and adults breakdown because they are not well !

Being punished for being 'ill' is a disgrace.

Being sent home is not an exclusion will not appear on any records

I'm not defending it just stating the fact about the law.

FWIW if have taken my DS2 home before. The school didn't ask me but they did phone to say they were concerned about his behaviour and left it hanging.... so I suggested I pick him up - they sounded relieved. However, this was still not legal technically.

Cece is correct - schools aren't allowed to send kids home. In this instance I would say he was unwell, however. Keeping him in school in that condition would be irresponsible at best.

The government gets very worried that schools might not be working hard enough with vulnerable children and likes to try to catch them out when they think schools might be in the wrong with that kind of thing.

All it boils down to is: does the school accept that your child has needs outside the 'normal range' ( there is lots of evidence that he does have). In which case, he needs putting on the sen 'list' and needs aspects of his curriculum to be 'additional to or different from' that offered as a standard. This is entirely independent of whether he has a diagnosed condition. It doesn't have to be one to one support. It might be advice to teachers on spotting stress in him to avoid meltdowns, or a daily meeting before school with the SENCO to allow him to raise worries, or a 'fire drill' so all staff know how to manage. It should not be (regularly) getting to a point where he is melting down. He is expressing that he isn't coping. I would request an urgent meeting with SENCO.

Info here

OP you might find the rest of the website useful for SEND information

Sometimes despite SEN difficulties or learning-disabilities a child is causing so much disruption that you have to give them, the other students and you yourself, time-out to decompress.

A child should be supervised if they are sent out distressed however. If it'd been me, I'd have got SLTs help, possibly via a LSA and let the school deal with it until the lesson was over. Then I'd speak with the child possibly with support and I'd contact home and try to discuss the problems with the parents after school.