Sending a child out of the class

[Daredevil]

I've name hanged for this as school have found Internet posts in the past.

I'm a parent whose dh is s teacher. Dh has a strong opinion on an incident that happened with ds & I wanted to know opinions from other teachers as to what happened.

Ds (year 7) we strongly suspect he has an ASD but getting a diagnoses is virtually impossible due to funding. We were refused a referral when he was in primary despite the school nurse & senco appealing. We are currently waiting for an ed psych assessment.

Ds passed for a grammar school. It's been a difficult transition, he's had several meltdowns at school & each time I've been called to take him home but recently he's been doing well although he gets distracted/frustrated easily. He appears very young/immature for his age & he is incredibly disorganised.

Last week he fell & hurt himself & had to have a dressing on his hand but it started to heal nicely. However the one day it was bothering him (dressing off by this point) & he was distracting others because he was distracted by his hand. So he got a reprimand but unfortunately he'd had several reprimands about stuff that week forgotten kit, not handing in homework he had done etc) so it triggered a detention.

He got really upset about this as he felt it was unfair & started arguing with the teacher. Teacher said he was very rude & sent him out of the classroom (unfortunately ds doesn't always realise when he is appearing rude especially when he's het up about perceived unfairness).

Was there any way this could have been handled better or did the teacher do the right thing. His head of year says this behaviour is not acceptable & the other students can't see him get away with stuff.

Unfortunately the situation escalated & he's now in big trouble.

for notsomanky - learn from my mistakes. Keep pushing. We stopped pushing at times when it seemed to be going well.

Ultimately the schools viewpoint is that he chose to hide ina cupboard for an hour sparking s huge search/lots of inconvenience & worry so he should be punished for it.

My viewpoint (& I guess some may disagree) is that he didn't choose to do that but was not in control of his actions at that time.

Yep if he's arguing with the teacher and disrupting the lesson out he goes, why should 29 other children miss a large chunk of their lesson while one child argues and misbehaves? Even if he has asd he needs to learn to follow the school rules. If he can't be left unattended then ask if teachers can go and deposit him in the class next door until he calms down. Maybe the grammar school and their strict rules isn't the school for him?

Sparkly, surely the SN (diagnosed or not) means that there should be reasonable adjustments to allow him to learn to follow school rules, and have support in doing so?

If he's academically able, with the right support the school could well be the right place for him.

Our local grammar school doesn't have a brilliant reputation for supporting SN, yet when a child is physically disabled, they bend over backwards to accommodate them, and rightly so. It's a pity children with invisible disabilities aren't given the same opportunities, and are seen as naughty.

And this is where the school system and their training of staff fails children with additional needs! There are many, many reasons a child may not be 'diagnosed'. However, school should be supporting a child without a diagnosis (with SN) in just the same way as they would a child with a diagnosis. Isn't the schools policy to ensure every child succeeds/makes progress? My son has no diagnosis (primary school) yet, but has 1:1 support full time and the understanding of senco department and other staff members that he has ASD and is treated accordingly. I think the school the OP talks about snd the scenario she describes is unacceptable. OP, I'd be arranging a meeting with the senco and teacher in question to discuss what happened exactly and how things can be improved for both their benefit snd your sons.

There really does need to be more training on SEN during teacher training! It's almost non existent!

As I said to someone at my ds's school, where I have been told "he needs to do as he's told", if he had a disability that affected his legs, no-one would expect him to get up and walk, go and do PE because this is the real world. His needs would be accommodated, he would receive support in the form of physiotherapy, crutches, wheelchair, help to get to different rooms, different PE lessons so that they would include him.
But because he has autism, he's expected to just do as he's told because someone said so, and if he doesn't he's naughty.
Some schools really need to up their game when it comes to invisible disability.

Absolutely spot on Phil.

The fact that you have been called to collect him several times indicates that there is an issue. Ask for a meeting. Present the ed psych report again and list all the issues he has had. Tell them he is clearly struggling and ask for a plan to be put into place to support him. The incident that has just occurred is just another example of how he need more support.

Good point about SEN training (sorry, I'll go after this, getting a bit intense, sorry!)
I was invited to a teacher training session about communication difficulties.
It was shit (to put it mildly).
They spoke about various aspects of ASD. One of them was eye contact. The lady training said it was very clear that eye contact shouldn't be forced. Ds's teacher piped up "Oh I always insist on my pupils sitting straight and looking at me". Instead of correcting her, the trainer just said "well, you're a very experienced teacher, so you carry on what you're doing".
So what was the point of the training session? All these things can help a child learn more effectively, but don't worry, you don't have to do it. And every teacher came out with a certificate saying they knew about this particular area of communication difficulties.

The problem with ASD is that it manifests itself in such different ways. I teach a lot of children with ASD who will do as they are told, and who wouldn't argue with a teacher. So to then say that he isn't doing as he is told and he is arguing with a teacher because he has ASD, and thus can't be expected to do as he is told sounds like excuse-making.

Noble, that's the whole point though. Anyone on the spectrum is just as much an individual as those who aren't on the spectrum and will present differently. The knowledge of staff needs to be much wider so they understand more about certain conditions. ASD is not that rare! It's not excuse making. It's looking at each child as an individual regardless of SN or not!

But noble, you said yourself that the problem with ASD is that it manifests in such different ways.
Anxiety makes my ds argue back and appear very rude.
It's not excuse making at all, it may be a simple case of tweaking how this child is spoken to to reduce anxiety, or understanding that this is the way he presents and accepting that he needs support to be able to do the same things as his peers, including how he responds to instructions, especially when he's distressed anyway.

I agree with noble.

To whoever said he should have been sent to the nurse - state schools don't tend to have a nurse hanging around. They put a member of the office staff on a 6 hour first aid course and then they double up. Grammar schools have zero money for extra staff to mop up melt downs and have long discussions about the fairness or unfairness of reprimands.

It's hard to know what to say. If he has had other melt-downs, to the point he is having to be collected from school, and was found curled up in a foetal position, incoherent, an hour later, it's clearly not the school for him.

The noisy school down the road might be a better fit- they are more likely to have the resources and experience of dealing with children who are having arguments and melt-downs when they don't understand or agree with teachers. Perhaps it's worth a look around?

I'm quite shocked, but sadly not surprised, at some of the attitudes here.

It would be common practice in my school too. Remove the child from the situation to cool off, sort the rest of the class out then go and discuss the situation with the student and remedy it.

But phil , that teacher wouldn't know that he had had other reprimands that week for various things, and that this one would be the one which would tally up to a detention. She had a lesson which he was disrupting and when she (presumably) told him he was getting a "warning" or whatever they are called, she would not be aware that it would trigger him arguing back. He doesn't have a diagnosis. But even if he did, the sanction structure is not fair if some children are exempt from it. The point is that the sanctions should be the same, but with support given if necessary.

What shocks you phil ? Are you a teacher?

Have you met with the SENCo to discuss strategies? They really should have something in place for him. They can't treat him the same as others as he has different needs.

I'm not sure how it works in secondary but at my primary, all adults working with him would be clear on strategies that work and what to do if he was having a meltdown. Yes there needed to be a discussion about how it is appropriate to speak to a teacher in such a situation but not at the time when he is in a state.

What has the GP said? Has anyone ever given you a Connors questionnaire to fill out?

There are two children who live in our street who attend that school who bully him/try to intimidate us (banging on our fence/threatening to do stuff/hiding ds's property) so he is terrified of being sent there.

Next door neighbours dd also gives there & she is given hours & hours worth of homework that ds would struggle with (model making for history etc). The school is so bad that not one child chose to remain for 6th form last year so the 6th form is closing. There is currently no head teacher as she went off sick following the second damning ofsted report.

Yes, Phil that's what I meant. Saying 'my child has a diagnosis of ASD' won't be the magic key to understanding from teachers, because children with ASD present in such different ways. Other children with ASD don't argue with their teachers and hide in cupboards so it still could be written off as naughty behaviour.

What is needed is detailed info on the child and how to deal with them as individuals.

Have you spoken to the SENCO? You need a good sit down meeting with her and then be in day to day contact by email if necessary. You shouldn't need a diagnosis to get SEN support from the school. Many SENs don't have a documented diagnosis anyway - such as short term memory issues. The schhool support team is there to help children who are for whatever reason struggling to cope and learn in school. Is there not a Support Room where children can go if it all gets too much?

We turned down a Grammar School place for our DD after much heart wrenching but we had come to the conclusion he would not cope with the speed of the teaching and also that ( despite the presence of a support unit) the head's attitude was generally antagonistic to SEN pupils. We are fortunate enough to have been able to pay bankrupt ourselves for an independent school which is well known for its nurturing approach and the SENCO is phenomenal. He's still struggling with the same things you are describing (although mine wouldn't hide, and has never melted down at school - he'd always bring that home) but the difference is that someone is taking responsibility for his issues and actually helping him. It's a real revelation after the hopelessness of his Primary. I do agree that he's probably better off at GS than your local school. Ultimately it is likely the GS will have to do SOMETHING so that your son doesn't skew their stats.

If he is running off and hiding your SENCO should be able to get him into CAMHs but I echo going down the GP route. It's no skin of the GPs nose to refer him although you may have to go to a Paediatrician first. Other routes - contact the school nurse ( there's often one for an area rather than for each individual school) or see if IDS (integrated disability services) can help you. If all else fails go to the National Autistic Society and they will help you get a diagnosis.

Oh I see. That school doesn't sound like a good option for anyone really.

Some schools really need to up their game when it comes to invisible disability.

Some schools need extra staff - resources that cost money - why don't you aim that at government who shut the specialist schools down? Made the specialist trained staff redundant?

I don't totally buy that.

Dds school is very underfunded & has staff shortages but they just have a different attitude towards SEN as a whole.

I wish ds could go there.