So how DO you shut up the constant talkers?

[Nonie241419]

I've come home tonight cross and feeling incompetent. There are about 6 boys in my Y6 class who just won't shut up. They make silly noises, tap their desks, trays and equipment, comment on everything I or anyone else says and constantly narrate what they're doing/thinking. Every time I pull them for it, they respond with open mouthed disbelief and deny they made any noise, or preface their response with, "I was just. ..." or "I was only...." I use the class sanctions, but they have no impact. I have a partner teacher, who's the deputy, but they don't relentlessly witter for him, so he doesn't back me up (he picked one of the persistent offenders to help with a special job at home time, even though he knew his behaviour had been shitty for me today). I am not softly spoken and think I'm pretty firm but I'm getting sod all respect. So what can I actually DO?

Not sure if it would work with Y6 children, but I move my KS1 children onto the carpet. If they are being really disruptive they take their book to the carpet and work there for the lesson (not ideal), or I have a 1 minute timer. They sit on the carpet for the minute, then go back to work. Any complaining/fussing and another minute gets added on. It might be a bit babyish for Y6, but the humiliation of it might work?

It must be horrid working with a partner teacher who undermines you.

I had one like this and the only way to shut him up was to say 'Oh class, M has got something to tell us - lets all listen now'. Cue deathly silence.

Took about 3 times until he just used to shut up with 'the look'.

Depends. Might help if your partner teacher was a partner rather than undermining you by playing the "well they behave for me" game.

I was about to come here and post a similar question. My small (outside of school) group are just like that. All of them. Every single one. It is my Friday Group from Hell.

Nothing works. I have been teaching for 26 years. Used to have classes of 60 boys of the same age who I could control with one eyebrow. But with this lot... nothing works.

I don't think it's me though. It's them.

Evidence...

They are up to their necks in it becuase they took small screwdrivers into school and dismantled every single desk, hurled all the screws out of the windows into the lawn, to avoid their English test happening.

It's Friday soon. I don't want to be a teacher anymore.

OP let us both sit here and wait for help.

(delete as applicable)

The biggest problem is that they bounce off each other, so if I move one within class, he will smirk and eye roll at the other boys, who will giggle or comment (of course!) in response. Similarly, if I encouraged everyone to listen to boy X speaking, boy Y will immediately pipe up, "Yeah, X, tell us what you want to say ", to which the other boys will grin or reply.
I have some lovely children in that class, but their learning is impacted every day by the disruption of a few. They have been a tough cohort for a long time, and their projected SATs results are dire, so they desperately need to be challenged and boosted upwards. But the willing ones are constantly interrupted and the unwilling ones are resisting completely. It's exhausting, depressing and, given that my performance management is linked to their results, bloody scary.

Have you watched any of the Teaching with Bayley videos on YouTube? I'm not teaching grandmas to suck eggs; I've taught for over 10 years and found some of his tips useful. It's also good to see how the teacher responds (well or badly) to constant low level disruption. There's one or two with titles like "Too much talk". I can't link on here sorry but Google it from your desktop.

Blimey, FogBound - screwdrivers is a whole new level! .
They sit in rows, as per school policy. I had got a seating arrangement I was reasonably happy with, with the mouthiest one sitting alone near the front just in front of a TA (he likes to have access to help, so liked an adult being near him and was slightly less relentlessly talkative), and with the angry one on his own near the back. Angry one had a massive screaming meltdown at me because I wouldn't accept some rude behaviour from him, so partner teacher had 'a chat' with him and got angry boy to write a list of things he wanted changing. One of the things he wanted was to sit with a partner, so partner teacher rearranged the seating, putting angry boy in the middle at the back, where he constantly stands up and ripple effects all the children around and in front of him, and moved mouthy boy to the central row with 3 other chatty/silly boys. It's fucking awful, but partner teacher won't change it back, because he doesn't have a problem and the boys prefer it.
I honestly do jump on the behaviour, and use sanctions, but I must have said something along the lines of, 'Do not speak when I am speaking/do not comment unless invited,' about 45 times today. They pay bugger all attention.
Can you tell I'm a stress head today?!

I'll have a look, Brookville, thanks. I'm not proud - I've been teaching 12 years, but I'm feeling like I have no effective strategies, so anything would be good!

Sounds like your real problem is your undermining colleague.

Angry one had a massive screaming meltdown at me because I wouldn't accept some rude behaviour from him, so partner teacher had 'a chat' with him and got angry boy to write a list of things he wanted changing. One of the things he wanted was to sit with a partner, so partner teacher rearranged the seating, putting angry boy in the middle at the back, where he constantly stands up and ripple effects all the children around and in front of him, and moved mouthy boy to the central row with 3 other chatty/silly boys. It's fucking awful, but partner teacher won't change it back, because he doesn't have a problem and the boys prefer it.

The expression with partner teachers friends like that, who needs a chop to the back of the knees enemies, comes to mind.

I think I'd rather deal with the screwdriver squad on my own than have "help" like that.

Ta for the Bayley tip Brook

He's made loads !

Me and my wine/straw are going to sit there and watch them. Pretending Friday doesn't exist this week.

Incidentally, t'wasn't my classroom they screwdrivered. That was at school. Who are Not Happy Bunnies. I've been teaching them on a parent's living room floor since October. there is nothing for them to unscrew. Except the nuts and bolts of my mind.

Yes, it's not a very happy partnership (I got displaced from a job share when my colleague moved on and management replaced me with a full timer, and put me in to cover management time for new partner teacher). Communication isn't good, he doesn't support me with behaviour and the children treat me rather like I'm supply. Which wouldn't be so bad if I was, but I have responsibility and accountability and am scared I'm going to be blamed (and actually be to blame) for their failure to progress .

Nonie

Could you start logging? As in break off and write down what partner teacher just did. With timings. On your lesson plan, so it's clear what the context was.

About 17 years ago I had a mentor (mentor my ARSE !) do something similar to what is happening to you. I had no proof, becuase he didn't do it when anybody else was around. But in retrospect I wish I had logged it as it happened, with his full knowledge. Becuase it would have been a lot harder to swing the idea that it was my immagination in the face of a bullet list with timings of his transgressions helpfulness. That I wanted to go over with him and the DOS to make sure I understood how to get the most benefit from his choices. [innocent face]

And I think it might have been a shot accross his bows. Although by the end of it I just wanted a shot in his bows.

Mind you. Not sure it would have helped. Everybody know he was an arse. But there was some kind of code of silence where we had to pretend the staff room was stuffed to the gills with only wholesome professionals. Which it wasn't.

Do you have anybody above him you can talk to ? Becuase I really don't think his game is at all unique, so should be quite easy for a senior teacher to recognise the style of undermining.

I feel for you. i really do. With my mentor's "help" ... I went home most days in tears.

LTB!
I think you need to lay down the law with your so called partner. Don't allow him to undermine you.

He is the SLT really. The other members don't have as much influence as him and he quite happily ignores them. The only other person I could go to is the Head, but they only came in September and I feel like I might be walking into a 'he said, she said' thing where I can't possibly win.
The problem with moving them is that I have to disrupt a lot of other children too, and it's not fair on them to have to move trays and desks twice a week, for the sake of a few children who won't behave.
It doesn't help that three children in the class have 1:1 support and they are constantly talking, so I never get silence even when the noisier ones have shut up.

I have a couple of persistent talkers - they're not naughty, just don't know when to be quiet.

On bad days I give them a post-it note, they stick it on the desk in front of them and every time they interrupt/shout out/make inappropriate noises they make a tally on the post it note.
I don't stop the lesson and say 'add a tally' i just incline an eyebrow and they do it.

If there are more than an agreed number in a lesson there is a sanction.

However, this system was implemented after sitting down and talking to the pupils and agreeing upon it.

During the first lesson I asked them just to keep a tally - they were shocked at how may interruptions there were in total.

After a while it stops and you don't need to use the system.

I'm lucky that a) they are generally nice pupils who respond well b) I don't have someone undermining me. Although I have to say I am SMT and your job shares attitude is appalling

Their trays slide into the desks, so if they leave it, they'd have to be up and down getting books and equipment - not conducive to a newly peaceful atmosphere!
My DH says I need to complain more to partner teacher and the Head, but it's hard when I get brushed off so much. I'm also a pretty compliant person, which is an advantage in a true job share but is shooting me in the foot now.
I really must stop typing and do some marking, but thank you all so much for the support and ideas. It's helped me feel less bleak this evening.

I think the hard thing is lack of consistency - I'm very lucky that the teacher who covers my PPA/management time is excellent and the children know we will back one another to the hilt. We may have slightly different rules, but the ethos and classroom management styles are very similar.

With the 1:2:1 pupils, who is making the noise? Support staff of pupils?

Yy to John bayley he is excellent.

Yy to only one person speaking at a time and as you are speaking we will all wait and hear what you have to say- usually met with silence.

Secret student? Have a class reward eg extra play. You pick a student everyday, tell the class you have done this but don't tell them who it is
. If their behaviour is good all day at 3.00 tell the class who it was and make a bit of a fuss of them as they got the class a point towards play. If the person doesn't make it ie rude or despectful don't tell the class who it was ( as that could lead to bullying) but say sorry the class did not get their point for the extra play. All children will be wondering if it was them that mucked up and hopefully next day try harder. This has worked with difficult classes.

Also catch them being good. It sounds like your relationship has strained with these kids ( understandably) but if they doing something right first time thank them . Be positive as much as you can. Most chn want to be liked by the teacher.

Agree with minilegofigure, also when students are doing work where they are supposed to chat e.g. group discussion, assign each group a spy (to rotate) who writes down on a sheet or miniwhiteboard anyone who has gone off-topic in the conversation.
Can you send them outside or to work in silence with a co-ordinator / teacher on a free period?