Andrew breaking the law

[Gizzagizza]

So, can I just get this straight - at the time Prince Andrew slept with the 17 year old Virginia Giuffre - was it illegal in the UK to have sex with a prostitute who was under 18? Was illegal to have sex with someone who had been trafficked? I know it is now.

Agree and as I said before...a woman posing for photos with her kids and husband at a family party when he'd yet again punched her in the stomach 3 days before.
She would be smiling enthusiastically too

The question under discussion isn’t whether she was enthusiastic. It’s whether Andrew could convincingly argue she appeared enthusiastic. If he wasn’t the one threatening her, he can argue he was fooled by her ‘enthusiasm’.

Incorrect, in the UK it has been illegal to have sex with a trafficked person since the 1950s

What statute is that?

She was trafficked, coerced and paid. So no consent which means rape whether she was 17 or 77 and this law was in place at the time of the photo.

Many people are trying to conflate the 2003 law about under-age increased to 18 to make him ‘innocent’ - whereas it’s all about trafficking and consent law which determines the rape charge.

Not sure claiming ignorance of the law absolves him of being a rapist. She was a young poor, vulnerable teenage American flown across continents - it was obvious to anyone she was physically trafficked. Especially AMW who was patron of NSPCC at that time and declared he was close to the new legislation going through parliament at that time.

If AMW helped himself to the contents of a jewellers because he assumed everything was ‘free’ - it doesn’t make him innocent. He might have explanations for his ignorance but they do not excuse him or declare him innocent.

What statute though?

Of course it would have been obvious to him that the 17 year old girl he was meeting was not there on the same basis as him - a prince - a billionaire financier, and a wealthy socialite. He knew fine well she was being supplied to him.

Right, well that’s interesting! Other people have said it was not illegal to have sex with a trafficked person. I’m just trying to clarify the situation, but that’s proving difficult.

It is as people boldly assert it was illegal but cannot quote the legislation that made it so at that time. I have searched and cannot find it

In the UK, human trafficking is defined by the Modern Slavery Act 2015, which makes it a crime to arrange or facilitate someone's travel with the intent to exploit them. The act of trafficking consists of three components: action, means, and purpose of exploitation, with a key point being that a victim's consent is irrelevant if exploitation occurs. Exploitation can include sexual exploitation, forced labor, and other forms of slavery, with the act applying to both UK nationals and those traveling into, out of, or within the country.

Key aspects of UK human trafficking law
Definition:
A person commits an offence if they arrange or facilitate another person's travel with a view to exploiting them. This includes actions like recruiting, transporting, harbouring, or receiving the victim.

Relevance of consent:
It is irrelevant whether the victim consents to the travel, whether they are an adult or a child.

Exploitation:
The purpose of the travel must be exploitation, which can take many forms, such as forced labor, sexual exploitation, or servitude.

Action, means, and purpose:
For an adult, all three components must be present.For children, the "means" component (like force or coercion) is not required, as they cannot give informed consent.

Jurisdiction:
UK nationals can be prosecuted for trafficking regardless of where the arranging or travel takes place. Non-UK nationals can be prosecuted if they arrange or facilitate travel into or within the UK.

Examples of exploitation:
Examples include sexual exploitation, forced criminality, forced labour, domestic servitude, and forced begging.

Not the same as human smuggling:
Human trafficking is distinct from human smuggling, which is a service-based crime focused on illegal border crossing, not the intent to exploit.

Penalties:
Offenders can face serious penalties, including a potential life sentence.

Enforcement:
The National Crime Agency (NCA) leads the UK's fight against human trafficking.

Victim support:
The UK has a victim referral mechanism called the National Referral Mechanism (NRM), based on the Palermo Protocol, which is used to identify and support victims.

Here you are.

Sexual Offences Act 1956 :
Section 1 - (2)A man commits rape if—
(a)he has sexual intercourse with a person (whether vaginal or anal) who at the time of the intercourse does not consent to it; and
(b)at the time he knows that the person does not consent to the intercourse or is reckless as to whether that person consents to it.

Section 2 It is an offence for a person to procure a woman, by threats or intimidation, to have F1. . . sexual intercourse in any part of the world.

Section 23
It is an offence for a person to procure a girl under the age of twenty-one to have unlawful sexual intercourse in any part of the world with a third person.

Section 22
22Causing prostitution of women.
(1)It is an offence for a person—
(a)to procure a woman to become, in any part of the world, a common prostitute; or
(b)to procure a woman to leave the United Kingdom, intending her to become an inmate of or frequent a brothel elsewhere; or
(c)to procure a woman to leave her usual place of abode in the United Kingdom, intending her to become an inmate of or frequent a brothel in any part of the world for the purposes of prostitution.

This last bit, makes me wonder if the fact she was American would she be protected under American law, since it appears a British citizen is protected under British Law anywhere in the world.

This was not in force in 2001

Have to go out now but will post info I found later - I am not sure these offences cover the 2001 incident which is why the law was changed.

Edited to add that I am not sure they make Andrew's actions unlawful- which is the point question in the OP.

I don't know, it would have had to have been tested in court with a jury.
Virginia claims she was paid 15k.

It's good the law was tightened up and made more relevant.

I heard an interview with M. Lownie who claims Andrew picked Virginia from a list/ catalogue of girls that Maxime & Epstein had.

He also claims Andrew was into young men as well... and Epstein provided these.

I do think if the only accusation against him was that he had sex with one 17 year old girl over 20 years ago and that he genuinely didn't know she was trafficked and thought she was older and consenting, there would be none of this attention and he would still have all his titles.

We only know the tip of the iceberg.

Why are you randomly saying stuff with no proof or research? It IS rape to have sex with someone who does not consent. She was trafficked, therefore she did not consent. It is absolutely NOT LEGAL to RAPE someone, trafficked or not, even at the time. It doesn't matter how old they are, if they don't want it, it is RAPE. They weren't 'having sex'. You're clueless!

You are spreading vile misinformation that wipes away serious crimes. Do some of your own research, stop relying on "He said, she said".

@FullOfMomsense were the trafficking laws in place at the time, and place the events happened?
Did he know she was trafficked?
Did he think she was there of her own free will?

20 odd years ago nobody really thought about grooming or trafficking.

Please tell me nobody is thinking of Andrew as an innocent victim in this?

Bearing in mind he commented that VG was not much older than his eldest daughter, your point is irrelevant

Picking from a catalogue of girls did he not have an inkling, as he said in THE interview as patron of the NSPCC "I know what to look for"
And let's remember at one point he was over on NSPCC business whilst doing this

I knew about grooming and trafficking 20 years ago, and if little old me did, you can bet your bottom dollar protection officers, intelligence and other forces did

Andrew was ALLOWED to do this. Anyone who spoke up about him was moved from duties. There was one particular PPO that happened to

Looks like it

There have always been Andrew apologists on these threads

They ought to realise we don't know half of it.

Yes they did. There have been many historic cases of trafficking and SA brought to court.

I doesn’t matter if he claimed he personally was ignorant of the law - that’s not a legal defence.

There have always been rapist / sexual trafficking apologists on these threads.

They are out in force today as their hero is exposed.

I agree. And it's not just about getting the facts straight, it's a subtle defence of him and a knocking of Virginia Guiffre, she knew what she was doing etc etc

I don't feel that anyone is thinking of Andrew as an innocent victim.

I do think that different posters come to the discussion in different ways. Some will never have done jury service and never have had jobs which deal with the close-written words of the law. Others will have.

Some come on here only to make a swipe at the Royal Family or to make a swipe at anyone who doesn't use the space to villify them.

As far as I know, so far, the only absolute evidence against Andrew is that he lied in the Maitlis interview about the dates of his contact with Epstein.
If a criminal charge is brought against him for more than that in the future and if there is a court case there would be a massive amount of what some people call nit-pickingness.
It is interesting to me that some posters have gone to the trouble of looking for the law to try and see what it was then, and to think if that would have a bearing on a criminal case brought now.

What I personally think of Andrew has no bearing on this question. I think he’s an immoral sleazebag and is so arrogant he hasn’t understood how disgusted everyone else is at his behaviour.

The desperately sad life of Virginia as we now know it, is also irrelevant.

In 2001 would Andrew’s behaviour have been evidently illegal to those aware of it at the time? Possibly not.

This was the era of ‘Child Prostitution’, and much older men marrying teenagers like Billie Piper.