The Yorks 2 !

[jeffgoldblum]

Sorry missed end of thread !
had a slight hiccup.
anyway thread 2 ready for tomorrows new article. 😁

Cherie Booth/Blair is certainly a very able woman and a high achiever- top in the Bar exams in her year, I think.

But she’s still highly acquisitive and fond of the high life which hasn’t always chimed with the (lefter than Tony) socialist views she claims to espouse. I don’t think she’s much of an egalitarian, for example!

Haha, well yes, I think that is the reason, I'm not into conspiracy. BUT some of the republicans are very excited that this may be another nail in the coffin. But I lean towards the view that handled correctly it could actually work in the Royals favor.

I also don't see it as being such a big deal to the majority of people at the moment. Just more gossip, unless you have strong royalist or republican leanings. There is so much in the news to attract attention, concern and elicit a strong response.

I think you explained it just fine, @jeffgoldblum, and though it's not my view it's certainly one I completely respect

As we've both said it's even more true that we'd inevitably get corruption no matter who was Head of State, but at least we could have a say in their appointment and possible removal if things got too bad, enabled by the kind of parliamentary discussions which aren't allowed under the current system - and while fully recognising the complexities there'd be in changing things it really is that principle of choice which matters so much to some of us

I'd even go as far as to say I might be content with having a monarchy if things such as Monnarch's Assent, the exemption from the FoI Act and the Erskine May convention were removed, but realistically it'll never happen so to me abolition seems the only thing that could bring a better balance

I read the earlier Lownie book, Traitor King, so I knew about Fort Belvedere. Since the renters have a long lease, I doubt the Wales family will move into the house.

Oh I see ! Sorry misunderstood,
yes I think if your saying the timing could benefit the royals due to sympathy I agree and obviously most people can separate the behaviour of Andrew and his wife from the rest of the royals.

edited to remove a stray full stop!

I knew Tony Benn personally, @vera99, and even had the honour of working alongside him on a couple of occasions

He wasn't faultless (which of us are?) and some of his political views weren't mine, but IME you couldn't be more correct about his overall character and core principles

If only there were more like him around today ...

As I said previously @Puzzledandpissedoff, though I don’t necessarily share your view I do understand and respect it .
I would like to see more transparency ( for both the royals and parliament!) .
I would like to see a more modern approach.
unfortunately though I’m not sure it will happen the very people who could bring it about are steeped in keeping things the way they are for their own interests.

Imho the RF can more justifiably be accused of hypocrisy when they visit food banks and homeless shelters.
This always irritates me. Where do they think the money comes from for homeless shelters, early years etc? It comes from taxes. They do as much as they can to reduce their tax liabilities. We don't know how much tax William pays on his Dutchy income because he has chosen not to disclose it-unlike his father, who did. Their charity work is all a bit 'Do as I say so I don't have to'.

Agreed, the Michelle Mone expose on bbc IPlayer is an eye opener, Andrew is just a little cog in a massive wheel of self interest and dodgy dealings amongst the elites and people in power.

That’s fine if you want to use a narrow definition of socialism which matches the communist ideal of public ownership of the factors of production, but socialism has moved on since 1917 to be an approach of making the capitalist system work across the entire population of the nation and not just for the rich.

So that wider definition of socialism is much more widely accepted hence the interest in seeing where Jeremy Corbyn’s new party will emerge in the spectrum of socialism v communism.

Socialism is about making sure that the wealthy pay appropriate taxes for the benefit of everyone. The capitalist system is maintained because it’s been more successful than communism in real life, and socialism is there to cap the excesses of capitalism.

So I don’t see the hypocrisy about being a wealthy socialist as long as you pay your full whack of taxes!

It doesn't matter what the scandal is, what awful deeds are uncovered, what so-and-so has done which is scandalous... they never do things differently in my honest opinion.

They bury it, they make the right noises very occasionally, and then they just carry on doing what they were doing

I would agree that Tony Benn was a man of exceptional integrity. I don’t think he was always right about things but yes, he seems to have been a genuinely good man.

I completely agree. I quite like the system of having an apolitical Head of State. Getting rid of the Monarchy would just mean someone else not really doing anything much but without the pomp and ceremony. There are far more important constitutional issues to sort out before we have a Republic like the overstuffed House of Lords and House of Commons, the not fit for purpose voting system etc.
Its the stuff you mention that is the problem. And I believe it is a problem for them too. They have little scrutiny, know people will go to whatever lengths they can to save them from themselves no matter what their behaviour, can throw money and PR at any problem and have the Royal Rota at their beck and call, so do not really need to behave. If they knew they were going to be held to account they would probably behave better, listen to their advisors and not surround themselves with yes men. This all needs to change, as well as the RF themselves slimmed down to the bare minimum, no titles for anyone but the Monarch and heir. Like others, I don't think William will do it at all. He will if its a choice between that and being deposed but not otherwise. I suspect his 'I will concentrate on small projects instead of doing the hand shaking' will end up being his downfall though.

I mean, as long as they are legally paying their way, paying all the taxes due to them and aren't squirrelling away money in tax havens ( as TLQ did) then crack on. We need successful rich people to be successful and pay taxes here to pay for what we need.

Thank you for this film CurlewKate

Hang on. So is everyone just politely going to ignore the fact that Lownie is saying that Prince Philip had a long-standing affair with Sarah Ferguson’s mother, Susan Barrantes, and was actually staying with her the night of the Windsor fire?

Or maybe this has already been discussed and I missed it.

I mean, their private life is their private life, but all of the church-going is a bit hypocritical isn’t it? Cultivating an image of a happy normal family when nothing could be further from the truth.

I don’t know how to put this politely but I think we have all been sold a priceless porcelain crock of shit!

Was Prince Philip’s the late Queen’s strength and stay during the night of the Windsor fire? No he was not!

We don’t know if that’s true. I’ve ignored it because I have no way of judging its veracity. It would be weird, certainly!

I think Harry is exactly what they all are, with one exception. They know the way the system works, but Harry wants more. He wants the Royal Family of the 1950's when they could get away with everything without any scrutiny. He wants the press to hide their secrets and show due deference while getting nothing in return, and he wants the privilege without the responsibility. The rest of the Royals know they cant go back to those days, so have to collude with the press.

Of course - but property speculation and portfolios don’t seem very socialist to me (call me old fashioned!). Of course they have the legal right to own anything they earn, but if you believe in an equal society(whatever that is…) its a bit embarrassing.

I couldn’t agree more!

Give them a chance!

We’ve just seen the end of the longest reign in British history. Yes, it’s time for some changes - agreed. KC, some say, shows little sign of this tendency but as I keep on saying (sorry), there’ve been a few things coming out of left-field recently, including his illness.

if the RF does nothing in the wake of these revelations, then your point will stand. I think they will, but maybe not next week.

Oh well - colour me socialist then!

I accept capitalism as the way things are. Love it or hate it - it’s the only system which has improved things for most people. But I want it to be well-regulated and I deplore tax-evasion.

If that makes me a socialist - wow - you learn something new every day!

He didn’t quite “give up privilege”. He gave up a title yes, because he was ambitious and wanted to be Prime Minister and by his time that wasn’t possible from HoL. He hung on to the money though…

He also moved out of the ££ family home in Holland Park and moved into a small flat in his later years so that he could pass on his wealth to his children IHT free (nothing illegal about that but not very socialist either).

One of his sons reclaimed the hereditary peerage and sits in the House of Lords. 2 of his other children were elected MPs, as is one of his granddaughters - it’s not what you know but who you know, nepotism alive and well….

So I wouldn’t put him on too high a pedestal.

He was nevertheless a very bright man, a great orator, who put forward a clear, well-thought out analysis and action plan, which is sorely lacking in today’s leaders. Whether it would have worked or not, who knows, the Labour Party weren’t prepared to give him the chance.

I’m not sure it’s as simple as that.

I agree for sure Harry the entitlement and privilege of course but I think he has a genuine problem with the toxicity and unfairness of the family set up, and all of the briefing against one another, which he called out publically, and for which he was subsequently punished!

A pp pointed out that it was perfectly possible for him and M to have had a similar arrangement to Zara and her dh who profit substantially from their status as royals and professional sports people.

And I do think Harry showed some sense of justice when fighting his court case against phone hacking.

He’s always been blamed for telling family secrets but we didn’t really know the half of it did we! He’s actually been quite discreet!

He needs to stop whinging and find a proper now and do some good in the world that’s for sure.

You have to examine the reasons that lie behind why he and his mother resorted to publishing books though. There seems to be a culture in the family of burying heads in the sand and not facing up to things with honesty. And of protecting a huge mountain of buried secrets.

You know what, at some point, you have to acknowledge that good PR can only do so much and the RF, or our eventual Republican Head of State, must raise standards, be transparent over finances and behave in a way which means they don’t have to be continually be on guard and on the defensive. Just behave with probity fhs! Why is it so hard?

It is quite amusing to see such dedicated socialists/communists wandering about in a successful capitalist system, redefining terms to suit their poorly constructed arguments.

I would wager if they were sent to the Baltic triplets (Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania) to do their homework on the systems they so eagerly cheer on...the before and after of actual socialism...they may come back with a more enlightened view.

Ooh - I didn't know any of that. Very interesting, thank you.

It all goes to show that we're all human. Very few of us are totally self-sacrificing or incorruptible and it's foolish to put our faith in individuals. We all need watching (I certainly do when my husband has a packet of Mr Kipling cakes in the cupboard...) including the RF. I don't think anyone on here would argue against that.

To say that the royals have terrible secrets - well, clearly Andrew and Fergie do. But who doesn't? I'm sure most politicians' conduct and personal lives wouldn't stand up to complete transparency.