Page 8 | Queen Victoria and John Brown

nahthatsnotforme · 2025-07-27T13:38:30+00:00

Several news articles lately and a new Channel 4 documentary on Thursday presented by Rob Rinder suggesting they had a child. I can believe they were in a relationship; she was a young woman when widowed but a child seems a little far fetched. Will give it a watch though.

AliasGrace47 · 03/09/2025 00:33

CoffeeCantata · 03/08/2025 12:56

My professional historian husband (and I) thought it was awful. Philippa is not an unbiased investigator and Rob swallowed the highly selective evidence she produced whole. For a barrister, that’s bad!

They did not prove that the princes survived the reign of R III. Practically no questions were asked of the so-called new sources that presented. Recently strong evidence in support of the account of the assassination reported by Thomas More (himself a rigorous lawyer) has come to light (can expand if you’re interested).

Of course Richard had them killed. He’d have been crazy not to!

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It was truly abysmal, in my opinion as a uni history student. No serious historian takes that Richard-obsessed Langley as a sensible voice

CoffeeCantata · 03/09/2025 18:54

AliasGrace47 · 02/09/2025 23:11

I'm pretty sure he was just as crazy about her. But we obvs can't know for sure.

I think you're being unfair about poor Victoria's looks. She was a pretty young woman, imo.

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I agree. Victoria wasn’t a classic beauty, fair enough, but she must have been much more attractive than the awful sepia photos show. Honestly, I defy anyone to look good in those images, especially with the horrid hairstyles and silly head ornaments they had to wear. If any middle aged or older woman today had to copy Victoria’s clothes and pulled back, long grey hair…not to mention the silly miniature crown, I bet they’d look pretty awful!

Even renowned beauties like Lily Langtrey struggled to look good in those conditions and in those sepia photos.

(On this subject - the one exception that has really been a revelation to me is the young Sarah Bernhardt. Check her out on Google - but search for images of her YOUNG, not the older ones where she looks entirely different. Wow - she was truly a stunner by any standards!)

CoffeeCantata · 03/09/2025 19:34

AliasGrace47 · 02/09/2025 20:00

No, famously when her surgeon said she shouldn't have any more sex due to health issues if she got pregnant again, she said, ' Am I not to have any more fun in bed?' 🤣

Read Lucy Worsley or AN Wilson on her. She was determined, passionate, melodramatic, affectionate, not cold and prudish. Overall, she could be shockingly awful (esp to her daughter Beatrice) but I do like her in the main.

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Also in her defence she stood out against the conventional racist attitudes of the time (Abdul Karim, Jewish friends such as Moses Montefiore and Disraeli) and she felt strongly that the government was taking too callous a line with the Irish famine and made a donation herself. A drop in the ocean, but her heart was in the right place.

AliasGrace47 · 03/09/2025 19:36

CoffeeCantata · 03/09/2025 18:54

I agree. Victoria wasn’t a classic beauty, fair enough, but she must have been much more attractive than the awful sepia photos show. Honestly, I defy anyone to look good in those images, especially with the horrid hairstyles and silly head ornaments they had to wear. If any middle aged or older woman today had to copy Victoria’s clothes and pulled back, long grey hair…not to mention the silly miniature crown, I bet they’d look pretty awful!

Even renowned beauties like Lily Langtrey struggled to look good in those conditions and in those sepia photos.

(On this subject - the one exception that has really been a revelation to me is the young Sarah Bernhardt. Check her out on Google - but search for images of her YOUNG, not the older ones where she looks entirely different. Wow - she was truly a stunner by any standards!)

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I love Sarah Bernhardt! There was a lot of anti Semitism then, and some French derided her as a 'mop' bc she was thin with frizzy hair. But she was obviously gorgeous (and a lot of well-known men agreed, including Edward VII)

I do think Lillie Langtry did photograph well, but I agree the photographs generally were not flattering. Esp as they encouraged serious and arguably staid expressions. Apparently Queen Victoria's daughters didn't like her to be pictured smiling. 🤔

What do you think of the painting I posted on page 7 of this thread? I think she's fairly pretty there.

AliasGrace47 · 03/09/2025 19:37

CoffeeCantata · 03/09/2025 19:34

Also in her defence she stood out against the conventional racist attitudes of the time (Abdul Karim, Jewish friends such as Moses Montefiore and Disraeli) and she felt strongly that the government was taking too callous a line with the Irish famine and made a donation herself. A drop in the ocean, but her heart was in the right place.

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Exactly, she was far more progressive for her era than she is credited for.

CoffeeCantata · 03/09/2025 20:22

AliasGrace47 · 03/09/2025 19:36

I love Sarah Bernhardt! There was a lot of anti Semitism then, and some French derided her as a 'mop' bc she was thin with frizzy hair. But she was obviously gorgeous (and a lot of well-known men agreed, including Edward VII)

I do think Lillie Langtry did photograph well, but I agree the photographs generally were not flattering. Esp as they encouraged serious and arguably staid expressions. Apparently Queen Victoria's daughters didn't like her to be pictured smiling. 🤔

What do you think of the painting I posted on page 7 of this thread? I think she's fairly pretty there.

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Yes, she’s pretty and by all accounts she had a very vivacious personality and that’s hugely attractive in itself.

Serenster · 09/09/2025 21:46

Bumping the thread as following the discussion about royals and illegitimate children Prince Laurent the (Andrew-esque) brother of the King of Belgium has today acknowledged paternity of a son born in 2000 to a Belgian tv personality. This was, thankfully for his wife, before they met, but that’s the second illegitimate Belgian royal offspring in the last decade!