Queen Victoria and John Brown

[nahthatsnotforme]

Several news articles lately and a new Channel 4 documentary on Thursday presented by Rob Rinder suggesting they had a child.

I can believe they were in a relationship; she was a young woman when widowed but a child seems a
little far fetched.

Will give it a watch though.

Are you calling me an idiot ? 🙄

I agree that Princess Beatrice does bear a strong resemblance to the young Queen Victoria. But don't forget that she is doubly descended from Victoria via her grandmother QEII (via King Edward VII) and her grandfather Philip (via Princess Alice).

@Cynic17

Yes Beatrice is a bona fide descendant of QV and there's never been any doubts there. However there must be hundreds if not thousands of folk today who are descended through illegitimacy to past royals but no documentation to prove it. I find the subject quite fascinating and have for many years.

Josh Widdicombe for example, who is possibly descended from the illegitimate daughter of Henry VIII!

(His ancestor is Catherine Carey, the daughter of Anne Boleyn’s sister Mary Boleyn - and so Elizabeth I’s first cousin. Mary Boleyn had been Henry’s mistress for before he became involved with Anne, and her daughter Catherine was 11 years older than Elizabeth so it’s perfectly possible she was actually Elizabeth’s half-sister).

I also am interested in the acknowledged illegitimate offspring of past royals. Like the current (11th) Duke of Richmond, who is directly descended from the son of Charles II an on of his many mistresses Louise de Kerouaille.

The current Duke of St Albans is also descended from the son of Charles II and Nell Gwynn.

I sometimes find the illegitimate offspring of royalty more fascinating tbh.

Charles II's many illegitimate offspring are a fascinating puzzle.

There was a thing I read a while back that said William will be the first direct descendant of Charles II to take the throne if he does - he's descended from him on Diana's side

Abraham Lincoln's descendent bears a strong resemblance to him.

I have one of those ancestries where everyone with the surname comes from the same place. There's actually a Viscount of the name with the same common ancestor. Although it would take a Kind Hearts and Coronets level of murder for my dad to inherit, the Viscount is the spit of my uncle. And another distant relative had a prominent obituary citing the same Tudor ancestor. The photo showed eyes exactly like my dad's.

In my own family, almost all of us take a very strong likeness to my great gran. Out of her 3 children, 6 grandchildren, 14 great grandchildren and the 6 great great grandchildren I know, only one doesn't take after her eyes and cheeks. Men and women both have the same look.

Apologies in advance for digression, but the subject of inherited features fascinates me too.

I used to be baffled by the total lack of resemblance between stout, full-faced Henry VIII and his bony, hollow-cheeked, Roman-nosed dad, Henry VII. But you need to look at Elizabeth of York, H7’s wife, to see where he got his looks from. And HER father, Edward IV (big bro of Richard III) resembles her and her son, H8.

The person who inherited H7’s bony face and nose was not his son but his granddaughter, Elizabeth I.

Yes, I know we are dealing in some cases with medieval portraits where perfect likeness wasn’t the aim, but in these cases they’re pretty good and I think we can safely trust Holbein with H8!

if you’re interested, have a look at both the famous portrait of H 7 and the amazing wooden sculpture of him - it’s very realistic. Sorry I haven’t linked but if you google portraits of H 7 or wooden sculpture of H 7 you’ll see them.

I think Edward IV and Henry VIII are the spit of each other. Well at least from their portraits.

Agree! It explains a lot.

Royal bastards were usually acknowledged, provided for and given titles and estates.

There is a fairly stark line pre Victoria and post Victoria on this though. Are there any acknowledged illegitimate children of a UK monarch (whether before or after accession) or the child of a monarch, since William IV?

That's a fair point. Times changed.

@DuchessofReality Not UK but Prince Albert II of Monaco has 4 children. 2 illegitimate who can't inherit the throne plus his legitimate twins who can. They are girl/boy twins and the boy is the heir - even though his twin sister was born first.
So his youngest child is the heir instead of the eldest.

There was certainly speculation about Edward VII given his numerous mistresses, but none ever identified and certainly none acknowledged!

The current king of Belgium has a half-sister Princess Delphine too. She resulted from an affair the previous king had whilst estranged from his wife (though they later reconciled).

Most sources believe he had an affair with Delphine's mother that lasted well over a decade.

Amazing that it was hidden for so many years when so many people - security, equerries etc would have known

Yes - the Victorian era was more moralistic than previous ones and also, while it might have been acceptable for a king to sow wild oats, queens would be judged much more harshly - in fact they’d probably lose all credibility.

If you look at the wedding guest list of Will and Kate - there are over 50 descendants of Victoria in the House of Windsor plus across the other European royal families.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wedding_guests_of_Prince_William_and_Catherine_Middleton

Ah, that's Fern Ridell, a historian of sex & suffrage. I like her books a lot, but she does over-egg the sex thing. Just bc Queen Victoria enjoyed sex doesn't mean she had a child with Brown. I do think they may have married, but a child is too much.

Yep, I'm quite interested in the salon scene in fin de single France,,and one lady I came across was Olga de Meyer, an interesting character rumoured to be Edward's daughter. It was never confirmed though.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olga_de_Meyer

No, famously when her surgeon said she shouldn't have any more sex due to health issues if she got pregnant again, she said, ' Am I not to have any more fun in bed?' 🤣

Read Lucy Worsley or AN Wilson on her. She was determined, passionate, melodramatic, affectionate, not cold and prudish. Overall, she could be shockingly awful (esp to her daughter Beatrice) but I do like her in the main.

I'm pretty sure he was just as crazy about her. But we obvs can't know for sure.

I think you're being unfair about poor Victoria's looks. She was a pretty young woman, imo.

Ah sorry, I didn't mean for it to come out sp big!